[Fultonius]

I used to love the boostics for long routes on edgey rock, but the new version just doesn't do it for me!

In fact, it's almost as if they stopped the misdole a tiny bit short of the big toe for "sensitivity" which just makes them shit on small edges. They feel plusher, but actually, on a long route they don't work for me.

[Paul B]

Otakis are my go to shoe. Have found them to be good for very edging and have done big sport stuff in taghia up to rivières pourpres which is 7b ish.

I think they are the dogs bollocks for most things tbh. (Shark please don’t start wearing them as you seem to have a curse on you regarding discontinuing shoes)

I couldn't keep up with all the new shoes on the market (Sportiva and Scarpa seemed to be throwing loads of new models out) but I think I tried a pair of the women's Skwama and found them fairly comparable to the VSR in terms of performance but at a higher price point and a lot less comfortable with the single strap design.

[cowboyhat]

Brand new Miura lace-ups, half a size bigger than normal.

I'd be interested in what people rate even for single pitch vert lime with little edges!

Miura lace-ups, half a size smaller than normal.

My old answer to this question would have been similar; whites size 8 multipitch, size 7 single pitch.

Since this year I'm down to my last pair of each, I'm currently in shoe wilderness and trying all sorts of things. Have just ordered, (haven't arrived), some Katana Lace which i'm told could be the answer to the single pitch UK lime problem, although I've had to take a blind punt on the sizing.

I tried some Lady Skwarma; they've rapidly gone from feeling very stiff to not at all and are definitely only really a bouldering shoe.

Unhelpfully i was loaned some Sportiva Ondra XX limited edition which I realised would have been the answer had that pair not been too big; hence buying the Katana Lace which seem like the closest thing...?

[jwi]

I use Skwama for anything steep now, but I am still a believer in Miura for the vert or of-vert.

[Paul B]

I tried some Lady Skwarma; they've rapidly gone from feeling very stiff to not at all and are definitely only really a bouldering shoe.

I've heard the same about the VSR (I've not tried the F specific VSR); I think it's likely only an issue if you're heavier? Mine seem plenty stiff enough.

[SA Chris]

I couldn't keep up with all the new shoes on the market

It's a bit crazy isn't it. 40 or so years since only real choice of 1 - Boreal Fire.

[petejh]

Brand new Miura lace-ups, half a size bigger than normal.

I'd be interested in what people rate even for single pitch vert lime with little edges!

Miura lace-ups, half a size smaller than normal.

My old answer to this question would have been similar; whites size 8 multipitch, size 7 single pitch.

Since this year I'm down to my last pair of each, I'm currently in shoe wilderness and trying all sorts of things. Have just ordered, (haven't arrived), some Katana Lace which i'm told could be the answer to the single pitch UK lime problem, although I've had to take a blind punt on the sizing.

I tried some Lady Skwarma; they've rapidly gone from feeling very stiff to not at all and are definitely only really a bouldering shoe.

Unhelpfully i was loaned some Sportiva Ondra XX limited edition which I realised would have been the answer had that pair not been too big; hence buying the Katana Lace which seem like the closest thing...?

Same situation, one pair of unused whites remaining. They've been my favorite shoe for about the last 12 years.. might just retire from climbing once they're done 

[Paul B]

I've got a box fresh* pair in 7.5 that I may be persuaded to part with for the right money 

I'd thought I was saving them for something but as I got more and more familiar with the VSRs I didn't find the need.

*the box may or may not have been lightly chewed by rodents

[petejh]

Mine are 8s and 8.5s unfortunately.

Roll on 3D-printing shoe-making. How hard can it be?

[slab_happy]

Brand new Miura lace-ups, half a size bigger than normal.

I'd be interested in what people rate even for single pitch vert lime with little edges!

Miura lace-ups, half a size smaller than normal.

My old answer to this question would have been similar; whites size 8 multipitch, size 7 single pitch.

Since this year I'm down to my last pair of each, I'm currently in shoe wilderness and trying all sorts of things. Have just ordered, (haven't arrived), some Katana Lace which i'm told could be the answer to the single pitch UK lime problem, although I've had to take a blind punt on the sizing.

I tried some Lady Skwarma; they've rapidly gone from feeling very stiff to not at all and are definitely only really a bouldering shoe.

Unhelpfully i was loaned some Sportiva Ondra XX limited edition which I realised would have been the answer had that pair not been too big; hence buying the Katana Lace which seem like the closest thing...?

As I understand it, the XX are basically just Miura Laces with the addition of the P3 insert from the Miura Velcros, which is why they hold their downturn instead of flattening out.

The Katana Laces also have the P3, but are a bit less asymmetrical. So if they don't work out, and you're not wedded to lace-ups, try the Miura Velcros.

[User deactivated.]

I'm curious - have those who rely on stiff shoes ever tried training their feet to be stronger? It strikes me that you could then have the best of both worlds, a strong/stiff enough shoe/foot unit, with better sensitivity from a softer shoe.

[petejh]

I think that's a valid point, calf endurance training (and big toe strength/endurance) probably always going to be useful in climbing. I appreciate the extra stiffness of whites since surgery left me with a slightly damaged sciatic nerve, which means the calf muscles in my right leg tire and cramp a bit prematurely.. a more supportive shoe helps there.

[MischaHY]

I'm curious - have those who rely on stiff shoes ever tried training their feet to be stronger? It strikes me that you could then have the best of both worlds, a strong/stiff enough shoe/foot unit, with better sensitivity from a softer shoe.

This is basically exactly why I'm looking for a semi-stiff shoe actually. I spent a season climbing in totally soft shoes and my feet got a LOT stronger. It was a revelation and since then I can't bear the drop in performance on super stiff insensitive shoes. That being said on very techy vert lime shoes like the instinct lace just roll off the edges unless they're brand new so something stiffer but still sensitive like Miura VS is better. Maybe the Katana Lace is the right direction.

[Andy F]

The Scarpa Boostic may fit the bill. Stiff and sensitive, you don't need to downsize massively and hold the edge well.

[spidermonkey09]

This is basically exactly why I'm looking for a semi-stiff shoe actually. I spent a season climbing in totally soft shoes and my feet got a LOT stronger. It was a revelation and since then I can't bear the drop in performance on super stiff insensitive shoes. That being said on very techy vert lime shoes like the instinct lace just roll off the edges unless they're brand new so something stiffer but still sensitive like Miura VS is better. Maybe the Katana Lace is the right direction.

No diss, but I think you must be very dialled in to precisely how each foothold feels to experience this. A lot of people in the UK wear Instinct Lace for vert lime and they manifestly do not roll off edges.

Is it possible you're overthinking it a bit? Is there really *that* much of a difference between Katana's and Miuras? Genuine question, as I just find the number of options out there to be a bit silly when for me personally there seems very little difference between a lot of them, other than the obvious really soft to stiff metrics. I guess it might also be the inner nerd that lives in most climbers that likes to obsess over technical details like cam holding strength etc, which I do as well! 

[cheque]

I appreciate the extra stiffness of whites since surgery left me with a slightly damaged sciatic nerve, which means the calf muscles in my right leg tire and cramp a bit prematurely.. a more supportive shoe helps there.

Nerve damage left me with a weaker left foot too. My left big toe sort of turns up and needs a lot more conscious effort to push down with. Having said that I wear soft-medium shoes that I wouldn’t have dreamed of being able to wear five years ago most of the time nowadays but that does partly reflect the type of climbing I do- if I climbed on limestone edges more my Unparallel lace-ups (Pete, these are the shoes you need, they’re tweaked versions of whites made in the same factory with the same materials) would get a lot more wear.

Also this is a thread about multipitch shoes isn’t it? “Get stronger feet” is great advice in theory but it’s a marathon not a sprint and a big part of wearing supportive shoes is not burning your feet out by half way up.

[petejh]

Will defo be trying out the unparallels. Also, any news on when Barrows is going to write the foot aero/an cap/pow fitness bible?

[MischaHY]

This is basically exactly why I'm looking for a semi-stiff shoe actually. I spent a season climbing in totally soft shoes and my feet got a LOT stronger. It was a revelation and since then I can't bear the drop in performance on super stiff insensitive shoes. That being said on very techy vert lime shoes like the instinct lace just roll off the edges unless they're brand new so something stiffer but still sensitive like Miura VS is better. Maybe the Katana Lace is the right direction.

No diss, but I think you must be very dialled in to precisely how each foothold feels to experience this. A lot of people in the UK wear Instinct Lace for vert lime and they manifestly do not roll off edges.

Is it possible you're overthinking it a bit? Is there really *that* much of a difference between Katana's and Miuras? Genuine question, as I just find the number of options out there to be a bit silly when for me personally there seems very little difference between a lot of them, other than the obvious really soft to stiff metrics. I guess it might also be the inner nerd that lives in most climbers that likes to obsess over technical details like cam holding strength etc, which I do as well! 

Yeah sure I get what you're saying. That being said I'm somewhat heavier than a lot of climbers for the grades I'm mostly using them on (8's, 81-83kg) and I recently made the experience on a local techy 8a that some moves were really hard with the lace but easy in the Miura. The difference in shoe performance is actually really significant and shoe choice can make a huge difference in my experience. The Instinct Lace is vastly softer than the Miura.

For example the key difference between Katana Lace and Miura VS is the shape and profile of the toebox plus the adjustabilty afforded by the lace. Katanas have got a very thin profile which should be much better for thin cracks whereas the VS have a fairly high profile which makes them better on edges due to the increased angle of the toe but poor on cracks due to the pronounced toe knuckle. You can also lace them tighter in specific regions of the foot so easier to take a slightly bigger size for the long missions and keep it snug when it counts.

That being said I agree with what you're saying in the sense that I'd dearly like to just have some shoes that work well and stop thinking about it for a while. I'm basically sorted for single pitch, bouldering and granite/sandstone multis so pretty much just want to get a good comfy lime shoe sorted that can still edge hard and then it's on.

Cheque makes a good point about feet getting knackered as well, like I say up to 8-10 pitches it's no big deal but longer than that starts to be grim. Would just like something that edges similar to a Miura but doesn't hurt quite as much.

[T_B]

The Ups were marketed as the obvious replacement to the Whites but I know a few folk who have tried them and reckon they’re soft and stretch a lot. The toe is pretty blunt from when I tried them. Definitely be prepared for them to stretch.

[MischaHY]

The Scarpa Boostic may fit the bill. Stiff and sensitive, you don't need to downsize massively and hold the edge well.

Cheers Andy, Boostics used to be too narrow for me unfortunately but I might give them another try in the new version.

[Fultonius]

Couple of points.

@SpiderMonkey - IIRC you're at the lighter end of the scale?  I actually think discussing shoes amongst people with wide ranges of weights and foot sizes can be limited in its usefulness.

I have mates (60-70kg) who find the Scarpa Vapour a "stiff" shoe. I find it sloppy and roll off on extending edging session. I'm 77-80kg, 43.5 / 9UK

I had a brand new pair of the new Boostics, and literally couldn't stand on a hold on my current Dumby project, Endurance. Back to instinct VSs and it was fine. VSRs less so. Even my resoled VSs were much better than the Boostics.

@Mischa:  Do you even haul, bro?  Maybe a consideration would be TC Pros for 90% of pitches and a nice pair of edgey tight shoes for a 2-3 crux pitches. We really considered this for Sognando l'Aurora last week, but then both decided to toughen the fuck up and just wear the TCs. (and were glad of it)

Point 3- despite being a Scarpa fanboy I didn't get on that well with Maestros. ymmv, but they had a weird blend of insensitivity, lack of actual comfort (numb pinky toes) and actually not great performance on edges, and poor on smears. Sold them.

TC Pros FTW.

P.s. I've also started trying to improve my smearing skills and foot strength by climbing in Chimeras on non-edgy lime and sandstone etc.

[T_B]

Boostics are not a good shoe IMO. Again, great marketing but the reality is they’re incredibly banana shaped and the back end of the shoe feel very soft. You don’t see any sponsored climbers wearing them.

[MischaHY]

Couple of points.

@SpiderMonkey - IIRC you're at the lighter end of the scale?  I actually think discussing shoes amongst people with wide ranges of weights and foot sizes can be limited in its usefulness.

I have mates (60-70kg) who find the Scarpa Vapour a "stiff" shoe. I find it sloppy and roll off on extending edging session. I'm 77-80kg, 43.5 / 9UK

I had a brand new pair of the new Boostics, and literally couldn't stand on a hold on my current Dumby project, Endurance. Back to instinct VSs and it was fine. VSRs less so. Even my resoled VSs were much better than the Boostics.

@Mischa:  Do you even haul, bro?  Maybe a consideration would be TC Pros for 90% of pitches and a nice pair of edgey tight shoes for a 2-3 crux pitches. We really considered this for Sognando l'Aurora last week, but then both decided to toughen the fuck up and just wear the TCs. (and were glad of it)

Point 3- despite being a Scarpa fanboy I didn't get on that well with Maestros. ymmv, but they had a weird blend of insensitivity, lack of actual comfort (numb pinky toes) and actually not great performance on edges, and poor on smears. Sold them.

TC Pros FTW.

P.s. I've also started trying to improve my smearing skills and foot strength by climbing in Chimeras on non-edgy lime and sandstone etc.

Sounds like I should be giving the TC another punt to be honest considering we're in similar positions weight wise and in terms of style. Long routes in the dollies and northern limestone alps is exactly what I have in mind. Hauling yessss, easy solution basically. Slower though but I suppose if there's lots of hard pitches you're not moving that fast anyway. The Instinct Lace are so good on granite though, I used them for a few big missions (14hrs+) in Norway this year and never felt limited. Basically just looking for that feeling but on Lime.

[Will Hunt]

Fucking hell are we all going to have to get Lattice plans for our feet now?

M - toe max hangs

T - repeaters session for arches

W - thought I should do some upper body but reminded myself never to skip heel day

T - thought about going climbing but needed to catch up on deadlifting a Snickers with my little toe. Thought about eating the Snickers after so flagellated myself.

F - rest day

S - went to the crag but forgot to bring my little portable toeboard for warning up so went home and had a session of tiptoe training.

S - fell off my project because I had that rest day on Friday. Or maybe it's my shit shoes and footwork. Not sure.

[SA Chris]

training plan - wear Furias Airs for training. If they don't get your toes strong, nothing will. Add some ankle weights to compensate.