[kingholmesy]

I have just seen from logbooks on the other channel that a few days ago someone repeated my route on the Lizard, Feed Me To The Birds.

The logbook is hidden but I would be interested to know what they thought of it - was it anyone on here?

If not this thread can happily wither and die, although feel free if anyone else wants to use it to post about repeats of other esoteric punter level stuff not noteworthy enough to grace the significant repeats thread.

[Hoseyb]

Glad to see I'm not the only person to narcistalk UKC logbooks 

[Dingdong]

I get pretty excited whenever I see people repeat my choss tbh, this is a great thread idea 

[kingholmesy]

Glad to see I'm not the only person to narcistalk UKC logbooks 

In my defence on this occasion a friend mentioned that he had seen on the logbooks that someone had repeated my route.

I do sometimes though narcissistically look up my first ascents (I’ve not done many) to see whether anyone has repeated them. 

[andy moles]

I'm going to defend this behaviour (because I do it too) as not (wholly) narcissistic.

In the same way if you've read a book or watched a film you often want to talk about it afterwards, it's interesting to reach out a finger across the internet to someone who has shared an experience (and climbing something new is often a more memorable experience). It's not like you wouldn't chat about it face to face if you met someone who'd happened to repeat your FA, or whatever.

That said, and as much as I find possessive language in climbing ('my' routes and all that shite) repellent, I do get the good feelies when someone says something I did was good.

[andy popp]

Great thread title! And of course everyone wants to know if one their first ascents has been repeated. I seem to have specialized in putting up things destined for total neglect.

[Fiend]

https://ukbouldering.com/board/index.php/topic,26397.msg502013.html#msg502013 this was on a similar subject. I think there was another one I started too!!

Edit, found it easily enough:
https://ukbouldering.com/board/index.php/topic,28795.msg565484.html#msg565484
"UKBer's own routes ticklist / repeat requests / hype."

I'm with the mole on this btw. One of the most interesting things about doing new climbs is working out the logic, making sense out of the rock, and having a sensible and appealing path for others to follow - then if other people repeat it, and it all "works", that's great, and nice to engage with people about.

[shark]

Big up to Simon Cundy for re cleaning and climbing a forgotten route of mine last year that I did in 1987  - possibly the second ascent  Faces at Via Gellia near Cromford

[kingholmesy]

I’m always interested in sharing thoughts and experiences with those who have done the same routes as me - as said above it’s a common interest.

This is all the more so if I did the first ascent, given how hard it can be to judge the difficulty and quality of routes you put up.  I don’t think it’s egotistical to refer to a FA as “my route” - it’s just shorthand for “a route of which I did the first ascent”.

I’m still no closer though to finding out who did Feed Me To The Birds and what they thought of it …

[andy moles]

I don’t think it’s egotistical to refer to a FA as “my route” - it’s just shorthand for “a route of which I did the first ascent”.

No, you're right, I'll walk back on that. Calling it 'my route' is just practical. Though sometimes it does expand beyond that to ego and route becoming more entwined.

I get intrigued by people repeating fairly obscure fairly hard trad routes even if they're nothing to do with me. Seems like not many people are playing that game nowadays.

I've done about 40 new trad routes and one new sport route, and as far as I can tell, despite only having been bolted the year before last, the sport route has had more repeats than all the trad routes combined.

[kingholmesy]

Though sometimes it does expand beyond that to ego and route becoming more entwined.

That’s certainly true.  And perhaps it’s telling that I (now not so) secretly hope others think “my” routes are not only good but hard. 

I've done about 40 new trad routes and one new sport route, and as far as I can tell, despite only having been bolted the year before last, the sport route has had more repeats than all the trad routes combined.

That is as I would expect and fits with my experience too.

[Neil F]

Big up to Simon Cundy for re cleaning and climbing a forgotten route of mine last year that I did in 1987  - possibly the second ascent  Faces at Via Gellia near Cromford

I'd post a photo for you, if I knew how Simon.  And no, I don't have a flickr (or similar) account...

[jwi]

Big up to Simon Cundy for re cleaning and climbing a forgotten route of mine last year that I did in 1987  - possibly the second ascent  Faces at Via Gellia near Cromford

I'd post a photo for you, if I knew how Simon.  And no, I don't have a flickr (or similar) account...

https://imgur.com/  You do not even need to get an account.

[Neil F]

Er, thanks Jonas.  Not sure what I do, but I will have a look...

[Neil F]

Interesting thread, and a great title, KH!

A few years ago I created a ‘ticklist’ on the other channel containing ‘my’  new routes.  I did it for purely for myself, just to see what I had done.  For quite some time it was a work in progress, as I kept remembering other new routes I’d forgotten to put on the list, but I’m reasonably confident they are all on there now.

Of course there are some interesting stats come out of an exercise like this – not least being able to see the relative number of logged (as opposed to actual, as many folks don’t have a logbook) ascents of each route.  Strangely, for my routes, it is the hardest ones which tend to be the ones most logged.

Originally my ticklist was private, but later I decided to make it visible to my partners (only).  Like the logbooks themselves, you can elect for them to be private, partners only, or public.

Some of my partners were intrigued by my list, and I was able to cajole one good friend to create his own. In fact he has been so prolific that he created 4 lists (!):– The old days (mostly UK routes); Les années françaises (the clue is in the name!); Seconded and Equipped (the latter, I assume, being routes he equipped but never got up).  I’ve subscribed to the first 3 lists and was surprised to find I’d done 27%, 17% and 25% respectively.  Unfortunately these ticklists are private, which is a shame as they are truly impressive!

Recently another friend has created his own FA ticklist, which is a really eclectic mix.  I’ve only done 3 of the 64 routes on that list, but I’d definitely like to do more.  But he’s set that one up as partners only, I’m afraid…

There was an interesting debate on UKC a year or so ago, which resulted in some changes to the Logbooks coding.  I know Mr Moles of this parish was involved, and may even have influenced the changes.  I admit that I was a bit disappointed in how that panned out, not least because a lot of interesting people (or do I mean people with interesting logbooks?) made their logbooks private in the wake of this debate.  I know there was some comment from people who were finding the logbooks were affecting them in negative ways, but those were never situations I had experienced.

I often use the logbooks for inspiration, and to see if a route I am interested in doing has been climbed recently.  Obviously this is largely irrelevant for sport climbing, but for obscure trad, particularly on mountain crags which inevitably become dirty and overgrown over time, it can be invaluable.  It’s great to glean a bit of info too, so it’s always disappointing to see a big route logged but either no comments or the climber being hidden.

My logbook is currently set to partners only, which I think is sensible as I tend to use it as a personal diary with warts and all write ups of the day and what went on.  And I certainly wouldn’t want to inflict that on an unsuspecting public.

As for my FAs ticklist, a couple of years ago I suddenly thought – sod it, I’ll make it public.  Since when it has drifted into the obscurity it deserves…

[Will Hunt]

I now need to contrive to climb with Neil to gain privileged access to his list (and of course so he can peruse my own. 211 of the best/worst boulder problems and micro-routes imaginable).

[cheque]

No you don’t.

[Will Hunt]

Now I read the final paragraph 

[andy moles]

A few years ago I created a ‘ticklist’ on the other channel containing ‘my’  new routes.  I did it for purely for myself, just to see what I had done. 

I did this too, hence having the abovementioned trad/sport stat to hand. Mine is private, though not for exactly the same reasons that my logbook is private. More because I genuinely don't think it's of interest to anyone - nothing connects the climbs other than me, and as I'm not Joe Brown or Robin Smith (or Neil Foster!)...

It's also a pretty cluttered section of the site so I feel a bit cringe adding a list that no one wants to tick!

[kingholmesy]

Picking up on Neil’s comments above, I really wish more people left their logbooks open.

I get that they can feel quite personal, and by having them open there is a tendency to write comments with how they will be perceived by others in mind rather as a truer record of your experience.

However, I find public logbooks a great source of inspiration and information.

[RobK]

Picking up on Neil’s comments above, I really wish more people left their logbooks open.

I get that they can feel quite personal, and by having them open there is a tendency to write comments with how they will be perceived by others in mind rather as a truer record of your experience.

However, I find public logbooks a great source of inspiration and information.

Unpopular opinion time, but I don't think a private UKC logbook should be a thing. If you want to have a private log fine, use a notebook or a spreadsheet. Don't go cluttering up a public database with your 'hidden' entries that are of zero use to me.

[andy moles]

Picking up on Neil’s comments above, I really wish more people left their logbooks open.

I get that they can feel quite personal, and by having them open there is a tendency to write comments with how they will be perceived by others in mind rather as a truer record of your experience.

However, I find public logbooks a great source of inspiration and information.

Unpopular opinion time, but I don't think a private UKC logbook should be a thing. If you want to have a private log fine, use a notebook or a spreadsheet. Don't go cluttering up a public database with your 'hidden' entries that are of zero use to me.

Cluttered, seriously? A series of simple text rows that read something like Hidden - 30 July 2023 - Lead RP makes a page too cluttered for you? You must absolutely lose your shit on websites that are heavy on ads 

Is it even all that much more useful if the user is not hidden but they don't leave comments? If I have anything to say about a route that might be useful for other people, I leave a comment in Feedback. Seems like a much more helpful approach than wading through lots of personal comments.

I find the idea that you should only be able to make use of an extremely useful and well designed logbook database if you're willing to have all your climbing activities publicly visible bizarre.

[RobK]

You must absolutely lose your shit on websites that are heavy on ads 

I lose my shit on a lot of websites, such is the danger of working in UX design!

[kingholmesy]

Is it even all that much more useful if the user is not hidden but they don't leave comments? If I have anything to say about a route that might be useful for other people, I leave a comment in Feedback. Seems like a much more helpful approach than wading through lots of personal comments.

I don’t think it should be compulsory to have your logbook open.  I do find public logbooks really useful though.

Often it is the comments about people’s personal experiences such as whether they enjoyed the route or found it pumpy or scary etc that I find more interesting and useful, instead of the beta type comments that people add in the feedback section (which tend to be quite boring).

Even if no comment has been left it can be useful to see who it is that has done a route. For example if it is a route that is on my limit but I can see that it has been onsighted by someone climbing at a similar level to me that might encourage me to think it would be feasible for me to attempt.

[cheque]

Often it is the comments about people’s personal experiences such as whether they enjoyed the route or found it pumpy or scary etc that I find more interesting and useful, instead of the beta type comments that people add in the feedback section (which tend to be quite boring).

Even if no comment has been left it can be useful to see who it is that has done a route. For example if it is a route that is on my limit but I can see that it has been onsighted by someone climbing at a similar level to me that might encourage me to think it would be feasible for me to attempt.

 

It can be very useful to see when people climbed something as well. You can really use it to learn about the subtleties of annual condition changes on particular routes.

I salute anyone who has their logbook fully public on there. I get so much entertainment and use out of that logbook system.

[Fultonius]

I think the feedback feature has a been a great addition as I know a few people I climb with have hidden logbooks, but will post useful updates (not usualy beta, more things like specific protection, loose rock, difficulty compared to other routes etc.). I have an open logbook, and through the years have varied the amount of info I log. Sometimes nothing, sometimes half an essay!

Up in Scotland it's very handy to know if a route might be clean, how hard it is etc.

I'm generally for more info as its very easy to not look of you don't want to know. Not bothered about hidden logbooks, but I do encourage those lurkers to add feedback where appropriate.

[duncan]

Great thread title!

I’m also keen on the UKC logbooks for all the reasons described above. If you use them, consider making yours public, especially if you sometimes frequent the off-the-beaten track.

I did a few new routes in my year of living dangerously (1983/4). Two felt worthy of attention, neither got any. One of the two has now fallen down.

The other is a 3 star banger, a safe and onsightable E6 in a spectacular position on a popular crag*. It’s usually dry and required minimal cleaning. It has had one recorded ascent since, in 1995. Ian Parnell may have done it too as he included it in a top 50 UK routes. It's not in recent guidebooks, has seasonal restrictions, and is in a slightly awkward location (despite being, cough, roadside). However, spurred by this thread, I checked again. Hurrah! Some attention in the last couple of years and an enthusiastic review: “Best route I’ve fallen off in cheddar...Get on it. It’s fantastic”. I do hope this encourages more people to try it.

*Our ascent is described as eliminating a rest-point. Since the 'rest' was a belay on a short bolt ladder I’d be surprised if there wasn’t some distance between the start and finish of the rest which just happens to include the hardest climbing!

[Neil F]

Wow, I hadn't realised you had liberated West Route Duncan.  Chapeau.

Any background on your success?  Did it require much preparation?  What's the kit like?  I'm always interested in the back story to signficant ascents, and your logbook gives little away... 

I always thought it looked like a bazzing route, though I've yet to set foot on High Rock.  In fact done very little in the Gorge, though Paradise Lost was memorable.
 

[kingholmesy]

I’ve yet to set foot on High Rock.

I’m not a massive fan of Cheddar, but that is surely a glaring omission in the CV.

[Hydraulic Man]

Wow, I hadn't realised you had liberated West Route Duncan.  Chapeau.

Any background on your success?  Did it require much preparation?  What's the kit like?  I'm always interested in the back story to signficant ascents, and your logbook gives little away... 

I always thought it looked like a bazzing route, though I've yet to set foot on High Rock.  In fact done very little in the Gorge, though Paradise Lost was memorable.

Remember the picture Crocker took that was in Mountain looking down the top pitch that looked incredible. Gordon Jenkin seconding...

[Neil F]

I’m not a massive fan of Cheddar, but that is surely a glaring omission in the CV.

Yep 

[duncan]

Thank you Neil, and since you ask...

I thought it was a great route. At the time it seemed the obvious plum, the High Rock direttissima, straight up the most impressive bit of rock* at my local crag.

I got back from an extended trip in August 1984 and couldn't believe it was still waiting to be done so ab’ed it as soon as the winter season opened. It needed minimal clearing, wasn’t practised, and had no fixed gear other than some old aid bolts linking the two cracks. I recruited Paul Smith who was always keen, especially if it meant getting one over on the older Bristol crew (His route Tricky Dicky was named for Dick Broomhead who had also had his eye on it).

We got to work the next day on a typically cold and slightly damp Cheddar in October. I fell off at the bolts on my first try, it all went smoothly on the second go. Paul flashed it on my gear. It was very sustained but this was the end of seven months of near full-time climbing and I’ve never been fitter. It’s well-protected with natural gear other than at the bolts. These must be ancient as it’s not one of the “restored” routes. It would be exciting but not dangerous if they fail, unless my memory is completely rubbish.

Edit: Matt Ward cleaned it last year, he emailed me the following:

"West route is a stunning piece of climbing in an amazing position.  I’m also surprised it hasn’t had more interest except for the obvious that cleaning it is an arduous labour of love and the window for climbing it is extremely short.  As to the gear, the bolts are pretty dire – we didn’t bother clipping them when trying it so it’s a bit of a hard move above gear and then pumpy to place the next piece.  I’d say solid e6 6b (for me very hard for 6a but then I’m about a foot shorter than Martin 😊). With gear in place – most likely scenario for me, we reckon it’d be 7b+. . "

 
I was developing a taste for new routing in ‘83/84 but took a 10 year climbing career break, moved to London, and got a proper job. When I got back into things in '94 most the lines I had had in mind had been done and I was, in relative terms, a much weaker climber. I never rekindled the habit. I still have some potential good ones to do in Pembroke and, now I’m less busy, I should pull my finger out.

*along with Sunset Buttress. I still have't finished Paradise Lost...

[Steve Crowe]

Karin and I have climbed quite a few insignificant repeats this year, her lead of High Octane at Kilnsey was perhaps the most impressive of our obscure ascents. Dry Rock E1 on Lewis was another, excellent climbing and the central line of the crag but no one had logged it on UKC until we ticked it one showery day in June and yet it is one of the most accessible climbs in the area with a very short walk in and no abseil required.

Our most insignificant though was due to an error in the new North Wales Rockfax. From my log book “We set out to climb Goldcrest and followed the line on the topo in the 2023 Rockfax. It turns out that is Quasimdo. Brilliant climbing but surprisingly vegetated. I made it up the hardest climbing onsight but backed off at a cornice or greenery. We returned the next day and cleaned the finish on abseil, then led it again.”

[SA Chris]

There are some massive extremes of numbers of ascents in places like Lewis, with some route having tens of ascents logged, but nearby routes of similar grade and stars getting none. I always wonder if it's due to accessibility, or if it has a decent topo! Must admit when we went we only had the SMC Scottish Rock Climbs Guide, and went for something we recognised from a photo (which is actually labelled incorrectly!)

[Steve Crowe]

I agree about Lewis so I added a photo of the route to UKC showing just how close it is to the parking that is near the ariel. 
https://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/crags/uig_sea_cliffs_central_-_mhangarstaidh-779/dry_rock-611293#photos

and I also added a photo diagram to the SMC website showing lines of the E1 (and adjacent E3 that we didn’t get on because it started raining again!)

[Fultonius]

Karin and I...

Seconded a mate up K&S Special a few years back. Not insignificant! Total Banger! 

[Will Hunt]

Our most insignificant though was due to an error in the new North Wales Rockfax. From my log book “We set out to climb Goldcrest and followed the line on the topo in the 2023 Rockfax. It turns out that is Quasimdo. Brilliant climbing but surprisingly vegetated. I made it up the hardest climbing onsight but backed off at a cornice or greenery. We returned the next day and cleaned the finish on abseil, then led it again.”

Wait a minute. Are you saying you found a significant mistake in a Rockfax guide?

[SA Chris]

I agree about Lewis so I added a photo of the route to UKC showing just how close it is to the parking that is near the ariel. 

I did have a look, and it reminded me how much amazing stuff there is there to do. Need to get back, and focus on climbing, not on the amazing surfing this time.

[Duncan campbell]

Our most insignificant though was due to an error in the new North Wales Rockfax. From my log book “We set out to climb Goldcrest and followed the line on the topo in the 2023 Rockfax. It turns out that is Quasimdo. Brilliant climbing but surprisingly vegetated. I made it up the hardest climbing onsight but backed off at a cornice or greenery. We returned the next day and cleaned the finish on abseil, then led it again.”

Wait a minute. Are you saying you found a significant mistake in a Rockfax guide?

Lol is there any guidebook in the world with no mistakes!?

[Steve Crowe]

“Lol is there any guidebook in the world with no mistakes!?”

It certainly got us to clean up and repeat Quasimodo, a route we probably would never have climbed otherwise.

[Neil F]

Thanks for the West Route backstory, Duncan.  I bet you were well chuffed with that one!

I never rekindled the habit. I still have some potential good ones to do in Pembroke and, now I’m less busy, I should pull my finger out.

Let me know if you need a catch on those Pembroke adventures 

*along with Sunset Buttress. I still have't finished Paradise Lost...

I’ll trade you your West Route tale for my Paradise Lost story, since the experience was really quite odd.

It was at the end of the Cheddar Gorge restoration project, when Martin Crocker cleaned up a load of old routes, replaced fixed kit, and generally got the place ready for climbing to begin again – all in conjunction with the landowner, Cheddar Caves and Gorge.

To celebrate completion of the work, and the start of the autumn season, Martin organised a big opening festival, where the great and the good were invited to enjoy speeches and a buffet, before various routes were ‘demonstrated’ by various local (and not so local) reprobates.

For some reason Martin asked if I would like to be involved, and if so what I’d like to climb.  I’d  hardly done anything in the Gorge, but had always liked the look of Paradise Lost from reading about Livesey and Ron’s efforts there back in the day.

Unaware of just what ‘demonstrating’ a route involved, I naively said yes please, and can I do Paradise Lost?

When me and Ian Parsons arrived in the Gorge, there was big marquee, and lots of folk milling about.  There were various speeches – think Bonington spoke, which seemed appropriate, before everyone tucked into an ace looking buffet.

Of course, we were supposed to perform, so despite being hungry, we postponed our lunch and headed to the crag.

The next thing I remember as we made our way up the route, was the first of a number of open topped buses driving up the gorge, with Martin on a loudhailer commentating on our ascent,  “Up to the right you have the magnificent Sunset Buttress, where you can see X and Y making their way up Z” presumably to a collection of non-climbing dignitaries who were full of a most agreeable lunch.

The whole thing was quite surreal, but it did add a certain pressure to a normal Sunday afternoon on the crag.

When I pulled over the top, there was a note pinned to the belay tree, which read “Hi Neil. Did you flash it?”  Fortunately I had…

Needless to say, by the time we got back down to the marquee, all the food had gone 

[fammer]

Enjoying the cheddar stories. The trad climbing in the gorge has had a bit of a resurgence in the last year or two thanks to the cleaning efforts of a few locals, there's some amazing routes to get done. kephalonia in particular would stand out as a great route anywhere.

[shark]

I’ll be down that way next week if anyone wants to do any trad (or sport) in Cheddar. Don’t know what’s unrestricted.

[Duma]

I'm parenting next week so not around, but it's the summer hols so virtually the whole of the south side of the gorge is off limits

[shark]

I'm parenting next week so not around, but it's the summer hols so virtually the whole of the south side of the gorge is off limits

Guessed that might be the case. Thanks for confirming

[Ally Smith]

...It was at the end of the Cheddar Gorge restoration project, when Martin Crocker cleaned up a load of old routes, replaced fixed kit, and generally got the place ready for climbing to begin again – all in conjunction with the landowner, Cheddar Caves and Gorge.

To celebrate completion of the work, and the start of the autumn season, Martin organised a big opening festival, where the great and the good were invited to enjoy speeches and a buffet, before various routes were ‘demonstrated’ by various local (and not so local) reprobates...

Excellent story - I was also involved and had the amazing opportunity to make a legitimate summer ascent of Coronation Street.

Unlike you, my partner and I heartily tucked into the buffet and took advantage of the open bar, chugging a couple of free ciders.

At the famous "shield" pitch, a photographer appeared, just at the moment my cider filled bladder had to be emptied!