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Cheap bolts & required quality (Read 3677 times)

Potash

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#25 Re: Cheap bolts & required quality
August 03, 2023, 12:36:29 pm
It's worth pointing out that Fixe plated steel bolts are being sold as climbing bolts.

https://bananafingers.co.uk/fixe-climbing-plated-steel-bolt-m10-singles-1

Provoked by this conversation when I check Fixe's website I note that these are suited for industrial, rigging, indoor and very dry climates.

spidermonkey09

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#26 Re: Cheap bolts & required quality
August 03, 2023, 12:45:53 pm
I've never understood the climbing scene's desire for chain-equalised (or any equalised) bolted lower-off/belays. I obviously 'get' equalisation being a trad and winter climber. Always thought it was:
a) unnecessary for strength - 2 bolts each with a maillon and ring is perfectly adequate strength for any loading situation to be found in recreational climbing. A relatively small shock-loading onto a 10 or 12mm bolt lower-off is not going to lead to something failing... the equipment strength isn't that marginal.
b) unnecessary for threading - if you're competent to untie and thread one equalised point, you're competent to untie and thread 2 points.
c) introduces more elements into a system - all of which can corrode at different rates and/or have design or fabrication faults (e.g. fixe chain welds)
d) has a larger visual presence
e) looks ugly as shit

I remember after my first trips to Malham in the late 2000's*, my main impressions were 'hard/tekky' and 'ugh ugly chain equalisations'.


* things may have changed? haven't been for ages.

I personally try to put chain on belays only because it makes changing them (hypothetically) easier if you only have to undo/grind off a maillon instead of a ring. I've replaced a few belays in yorkshire where the bolts at the belay were fine but the hardware was rusted shut/worn. I don't tend to bother equalising them for the reasons you state and also because it uses more chain, which I would then have to cut to length or have excessively long etc= faff. I normally go bolt- chain-bolt- lower off biner. There are a few fully equalised chain belays but these are mostly integrated chain sets I think.

petejh

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#27 Re: Cheap bolts & required quality
August 03, 2023, 01:07:46 pm
I personally try to put chain on belays only because it makes changing them (hypothetically) easier if you only have to undo/grind off a maillon instead of a ring.
..
I normally go bolt- chain-bolt- lower off biner.

You never need to grind off a ring:

1 Bolt, 1 maillon & ring.
1 Bolt, 1 maillon & ring.
Slightly offset so as not to twist a loaded rope.

The ring never wears through as it doesn't develop a groove to wear (at least not in a lifetime). The maillon (or ring) can be easily replaced if any corrosion develops or there's a batch fault. Not that it ever should in a lifetime if they're good quality SS.

Minimal equipment, less visible, fewer points of failure/corrosion.

I think introducing steel chain on cliffs is one more thing to go wrong/corrode/mess up sourcing quality equipment/fabricator error, and unsightly. You can also end up paying more per lower-off.

Fultonius

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#28 Re: Cheap bolts & required quality
August 03, 2023, 01:14:59 pm
 Where do you get your malli9ns and rings Pete? Need to tidy up the Los at dumbuck a bit. Do you Superglue the mallion threads?

petejh

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#29 Re: Cheap bolts & required quality
August 03, 2023, 01:19:57 pm
I get them from the NW bolt fund. Chris P does the sourcing, I believe he purchases from Dicks Climbing among other places.. depends on who's offering deals.

I have loctite'd the threads in the past but haven't done so in the last 10 years or so - just a nip tight with adjustable.


edit..
Sourcing good quality stainless steel maillons and rings (at an affordable price) can be a minefield for the unwary. As you probably know you're entering the area of 'lifting equipment' and lifting equipment isn't 'climbing equipment'. A 7mm stainless maillon rapide is stamped with 450kg, which can sound low when climbers are used to seeing the equivalent of 2.2 tons (22kN) on their alloy biners. But it will take 4.5 tons to break the stainless maillon rapide, versus your alloy biner breaking at half of that - i.e.2.2 tons or what it says stamped on the biner.

Which is why sourcing this stuff is best left to bolt funds run by people who - hopefully - know what they're doing (and who can pull-test to destruction to confirm strengths).
« Last Edit: August 03, 2023, 01:52:38 pm by petejh »

spidermonkey09

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#30 Re: Cheap bolts & required quality
August 03, 2023, 01:41:47 pm

You never need to grind off a ring:

1 Bolt, 1 maillon & ring.
1 Bolt, 1 maillon & ring.
Slightly offset so as not to twist a loaded rope.

The ring never wears through as it doesn't develop a groove to wear (at least not in a lifetime). The maillon (or ring) can be easily replaced if any corrosion develops or there's a batch fault. Not that it ever should in a lifetime if they're good quality SS.


You're right; but I've replaced several belays where for some reason the ring was directly on the bolt without the intermediate maillon. They were probably pretty old though; must have been some sort of prefab set? I think with these I just put a whole new belay in and totally removed the old bolts.

I don't disagree with you though, I don't have a problem with rings as long as there's a way of getting them off in the event you need to. Gluing maillons shut seems to defeat the purpose a bit, I haven't done this either.

jwi

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#31 Re: Cheap bolts & required quality
August 03, 2023, 02:13:53 pm
Tangentially, if the belay consists of two independent rings, and the bolts looks ok and not placed by an idiot, I always lower off just one of them regardless of geometry. Because no matter how you place two rings, the rope will always always always twist if you lower off both. I realise that there is no redundancy and I'm only a badly placed bolt away from death, but I do not like twisted ropes, so that is a trade off my near ones have to live with after I died.

petejh

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#32 Re: Cheap bolts & required quality
August 03, 2023, 03:11:58 pm
I suppose at least your loved one would inherit an untwisted rope.

Vertically or offset vertically-aligned rings wont twist the rope, but not many people place like this.

jwi

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#33 Re: Cheap bolts & required quality
August 03, 2023, 04:23:19 pm
In my experience, they do.

kc

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#34 Re: Cheap bolts & required quality
August 03, 2023, 04:44:10 pm
Exactly what Pete says regarding chains.

I'll often install a pair of naked resin bolts at the belay especially for example if the route is in full public view, low traffic, hard, steep or a combination of the above.
 An 8a+ on the left hand side of the Cornice that's only climbable in drought conditions isn't going to get the same abuse handed out by punters in some popular turd quarry top roping directly through the bolts.
 
Something other than strength to consider when selecting maillons is the diameter. There are some pretty skinny well rated maillon rapides available that are great with a resin bolt but these are going to get gouged out on a plate hanger in no time.

 

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