If we fully accepted the "trans-women are women" argument then its pretty unlikely that this 4:12 time even is the fastest for a woman.
In sports, though, male/female categories exist and they have to mean something physically (arguably in sports they shouldn't have ANYTHING to do with social roles, but unfortunately sport doesn't exist in a vacuum outside of society).
So regardless of what category you think trans women should be in, we're going to have to get better at distinguishing the sports categories from the identities of the people in them.
Quote from: slab_happy on May 11, 2023, 01:25:52 pmSo regardless of what category you think trans women should be in, we're going to have to get better at distinguishing the sports categories from the identities of the people in them. do you think this will be acceptable to the wider trans community?
Woman born as woman may have a disadvantage and possibly space should be made for them in the Paralympics
For me, being the fastest ever woman is a heck of a lot more impressive than being the 5,000th fastest human, so it does diminish it quite a lot to just throw this woman's achievement in the "human" category.
Quote from: slab_happy on May 11, 2023, 01:25:52 pmSo regardless of what category you think trans women should be in, we're going to have to get better at distinguishing the sports categories from the identities of the people in them.Whilst I think the majority of people in this conversation would agree that splitting the physical and social elements of sex and gender would allow this neat solution do you think this will be acceptable to the wider trans community?
My point is that, as mentioned, there are already non-binary athletes who choose to compete in a category which doesn't match their gender identity. So regardless of anything else, we are going to have to get better at separating category and identity, just to treat these athletes with basic respect.
Quote from: slab_happy on May 11, 2023, 04:03:29 pmMy point is that, as mentioned, there are already non-binary athletes who choose to compete in a category which doesn't match their gender identity. So regardless of anything else, we are going to have to get better at separating category and identity, just to treat these athletes with basic respect.Presumably not such an issue with "open" and "born female" as category names?
The set of situations where sex-at-birth is the key issue is likely to be limited, but elite sport is probably one of them..........Presumably not such an issue with "open" and "born female" as category names?
Quote from: abarro81 on May 11, 2023, 04:13:36 pmQuote from: slab_happy on May 11, 2023, 04:03:29 pmMy point is that, as mentioned, there are already non-binary athletes who choose to compete in a category which doesn't match their gender identity. So regardless of anything else, we are going to have to get better at separating category and identity, just to treat these athletes with basic respect.Presumably not such an issue with "open" and "born female" as category names?One really difficult question to answer comprehensively is: what does "born female" actually mean? This article in Nature is a cool introduction to some of the ideas about how difficult it is to define female as a category from a genetic perspective and how thinking of sex as a spectrum is probably a better biological model.edit: There's also some excellent charts in this article to help visualise some of the complexity.
I may have misunderstood, but I think Potash is basically saying: trans women are women where gender identity is important, but are not women where sex-at-birth is important...
The lack of nuance in "trans women are women" strikes me as as simplistic
You should be able to socially and legally transition and be treated with dignity and respect to your identified gender but you can't participate in elite sports as that gender.
I actually posted it as I follow cycling and saw it today whilst looking at the site. I guess I posted it simply as I was reading it and thought it might be of interest to some on here - there are not that many ex-elite level athletes who have transitioned themselves and their views on the matter could be of interest.Sorry if you, Alex etc didn't rate the article, having seen some of the abuse/arguments directed at folk like Austin Killips, Lia Thomas (where the points raised in the article are the milder ones) I posted this as a response to that, but on reflection the debate on here hasn't drifted into that territory. It didn't add anything to the scientific debate. I would say that if you think it was full of straw men then I suggest you take a look at the sort of arguments that trans athletes (and trans folk in general) do face, not just from raving loons on twitter, but from mainstream media and folks in position of power within sport, and then think about how that sort of commentary will effect anyone who identifies with this group. (another cycling website, from yesterday: https://www.cyclingweekly.com/news/after-claims-of-intimidation-and-personal-attacks-cynisca-cycling-and-board-member-and-anti-trans-advocate-inga-thompson-part-ways)I do find the trans issue very emotive, but actually a lot less so in the sporting context. I think most trans folk are much more concerned about being able to walk down the street/go to the toilet safely/access the medical support they need.It's also noticeable that Ross "I'm going to call them male even though I know it will offend some people" Tucker is brought up as a good overview of the science of it all (sorry Sheavi, maybe not something you were aware of). If someone doesn't have the respect to use the correct pronoun, is happy to deliberately offend one side of an argument then either that person is so lacking in understanding of the debate, or is so biased towards one side of the debate that I struggle to give their thoughts credibility. At the least their views should be taken with their biases in mind.I actually agree that the current UCI etc regulations are likely biased towards inclusion over fairness (which is likely something Ross brings up, with some science behind it, but I'm not sure if I want to give him the youtube views. Maybe says more about my sensitivity on the subject). Wouldn't it be wonderful if there could be a way for trans women to compete fairly, and be accepted amongst other women.
I actually posted it as I follow cycling and saw it today whilst looking at the site. I guess I posted it simply as I was reading it and thought it might be of interest to some on here - there are not that many ex-elite level athletes who have transitioned themselves and their views on the matter could be of interest.
I would say that if you think it was full of straw men then I suggest you take a look at the sort of arguments that trans athletes (and trans folk in general) do face, not just from raving loons on twitter, but from mainstream media and folks in position of power within sport, and then think about how that sort of commentary will effect anyone who identifies with this group. (another cycling website, from yesterday: https://www.cyclingweekly.com/news/after-claims-of-intimidation-and-personal-attacks-cynisca-cycling-and-board-member-and-anti-trans-advocate-inga-thompson-part-ways)
I do find the trans issue very emotive, but actually a lot less so in the sporting context. I think most trans folk are much more concerned about being able to walk down the street/go to the toilet safely/access the medical support they need.
It's also noticeable that Ross "I'm going to call them male even though I know it will offend some people" Tucker is brought up as a good overview of the science of it all (sorry Sheavi, maybe not something you were aware of). If someone doesn't have the respect to use the correct pronoun, is happy to deliberately offend one side of an argument then either that person is so lacking in understanding of the debate, or is so biased towards one side of the debate that I struggle to give their thoughts credibility. At the least their views should be taken with their biases in mind.
Wouldn't it be wonderful if there could be a way for trans women to compete fairly, and be accepted amongst other women.
It's also noticeable that Ross "I'm going to call them male even though I know it will offend some people" Tucker is brought up as a good overview of the science of it all (sorry Sheavi, maybe not something you were aware of). If someone doesn't have the respect to use the correct pronoun, is happy to deliberately offend one side of an argument then either that person is so lacking in understanding of the debate, or is so biased towards one side of the debate that I struggle to give their thoughts credibility.
I actually agree that the current UCI etc regulations are likely biased towards inclusion over fairness (which is likely something Ross brings up, with some science behind it, but I'm not sure if I want to give him the youtube views.
I agree with this, anyone has the right to be respected and to not be vilified or excluded from society. Sport is valuable because it provides a somewhat objective way of channelling our competive and combative spirit, via a contrived physical/mental/emotional challenge - into entertainment. It's a good substitute for the more barbaric versions of human-v-human competition humans enjoyed for most of history. But part what makes sport valuable - its attempt at fair competition - also makes it brutal for the people it excludes who don't fit into the categories. A civilised society needn't exclude people in normal day to day life though.
Idk - is male a pronoun? I don't know the back story but Ross wasn't blithely mis-gendering anyone from what I saw. I thought the video was fairly balanced. Certainly it was a lot more thoughtful than where phillipa seemingly dismissed sex differences by saying that different people are different sizes and there's more difference within a sex than between the sexes. That's not really the point.
dickheads, of all stripes,
This may seem like I am being a snowflake, taking offence where non is intended etc but I know far to well the effect this sort of trans phobia can have on young trans kids lives and mental health.