[mrjonathanr]

The latest developments in a story of politically motivated transphobic influencers, and politicians who should know better, jumping on something to be angry about.

https://bylinetimes.com/2023/06/22/dead-cats-and-transphobic-lies/

They can all relax, human-cat surgery is not available and no one's going to be threatened by which litter tray is used.

I know a few cats, they're all cool.

It’s all very, very predictable. Get angry about something invented or of little consequence, identify with the in group,  be distracted from the things that have a serious impact.

Unoriginal. Effective.

[slab_happy]

They can all relax, human-cat surgery is not available and no one's going to be threatened by which litter tray is used.

See, you say this as a joke, but the whole "child identifies as a CAT!!!" thing is a hoax recycled from the US, after it's already been extensively and repeatedly debunked there, and litter boxes play a big part, I kid you not:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Litter_boxes_in_schools_hoax

So any journalist should know better than to start running with this sort of stuff before fact-checking it.

Meanwhile, the school have even had to issue an official statement that none of their pupils identify as cats "or any other animal":

https://www.theguardian.com/education/2023/jun/23/child-identifying-as-cat-controversy-from-a-tiktok-video-to-media-frenzy

It’d be informative to note which newspapers (e.g. the Telegraph, the Mail) have run endless outraged articles on this “story”, and see whether any of them ever acknowledge to their readers that there was never a cat child.

[Gritter]

My understanding is anthropomorphism has a complex relationship with the LGBTQIA+ community ranging from Furry Fandom to more fetishised BDSM Pup Play, although according to online information anybody is welcome to engage in pup play and furryfandom at a platonic level or something that may be more sexually explorative such as being a 'pup' and having a 'handler'.

This friendly article discusses the myths and facts in relation UK schools

https://oursaferschools.co.uk/2023/04/24/furries/

This website is quite extensive and provides an FAQ's page about 'the science'

https://furscience.com

This website is dedicated to pup play across the spectrum from platonic fun to BDSM

https://www.pupspace.net/en-US/Home/FAQ

and this is an interesting and darkly amusing video of a German 'Pride' event for the serious fringe identity of Zoophile, note I'm not advocating zoophilia and believe the rights of the German Shepard in question as well as the Zoophile community members must be carefully balanced. Until 'the science' catches up with and recognises the validity of the relationships in question, possibly through the use of fMRI scanner showing how the part of the limbic system associated with desire and love, lights up when the dog is presented with the partner.

[Will Hunt]

FWIW my sister-in-law does teach a child who reported identifying as a cat (might still do, I don't know).

I don't believe any litter trays have been installed.

[petejh]

Fur real?

[Potash]

FWIW my sister-in-law does teach a child who reported identifying as a cat (might still do, I don't know).

I don't believe any litter trays have been installed.

I followed with fascination the case of Rachel Dolezal several years ago and the criticism she received for identifying as black.

[Alex B]

What you're up against here Alex is known as 'peak insanity' in which there is literally nothing you can say to sway the mind of someone that believes it's reasonable to 'pause' the puberty of a child with the intention of beginning a process that will render that child sterile and irreversibly physically altered with increased vulnerability to all sorts of health issues and reduced lifespan.

100% mate

We have Slab citing vanishingly rare intersex disorders to try to poke holes in the definition of biological sex, while proposing to replace it with something called "gender identity" that they cannot even begin to define.

You couldn't make this shit up.

It's one thing to support those medical interventions but Slab also wants to pretend that there aren't reasonable clinicians (including national medical bodies) who disagree, and that is just not sustainable.

For those of you who still have an open mind, please consider carefully whether the judgement of history will be kind to those who used specious arguments to justify cutting off the healthy breasts of 13 year old girls. Ignorance is no longer an excuse. .

"Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities." - Voltaire

RE: the Rye College catgirl story.

I follow Otto English on twitter and he's tweeted dozens of times about this story. He plainly has an intense emotional commitment to the cat aspect being false for whatever reason; he dismissed it as fake news soon after the story was published.
Then when people weren't convinced, a teacher reached out to him to confirm his interpretation was correct. Suuuuuureee.

The BylineTimes has been falsely reporting that cats are referred to once in the recording. Actually, it's mentioned three times.

"If they want to identify as a cat or something then they are genuinely unwell"
"they turned around and started saying something, and I said how can you identify as a cat when you're a girl"
"You can't have a vagina and be a girl but then identify as a cat"

It takes some mental gymnastics to get around the interpretation that we are dealing with a girl identifying as a cat.

The alternative interpretation would be that this is a female student who identifies as a boy, whom the girls were mocking by comparing this to identifying as a cat.
If this was the case, why didn't the teacher simply say "but this pupil identifies as a boy/girl, not a cat". She had three opportunities to do so.
Btw, usually when people want to mock a trans identification they say things like "I identify as a cat /attack helicopter/whatever", rather than imputing those beliefs to other people. Because nobody can deny another person's internal mental state.

I'm open to being persuaded but it's going to take more than a mere denial from the school, which the girls involved dispute, and an anonymous statement in the BylineTimes lol.

Having said all that, the most troubling aspect of the story for me was the unreasonableness of the teacher: her misunderstanding of biology (no, intersex people do not constitute a third sex), the incoherence of her beliefs (not accepting multiple genders is the cause of homophobia, somehow), and her intolerance of opposing views (believing there are two genders is "despicable" and the girls should find another school).

She is not fit to teach children.

[Gritter]

FWIW my sister-in-law does teach a child who reported identifying as a cat (might still do, I don't know).

I don't believe any litter trays have been installed.

I followed with fascination the case of Rachel Dolezal several years ago and the criticism she received for identifying as black.

This reminds me of the case of Jorund Viktoria the Norwegian trans woman who identified as disabled and was a wheel chair user or the lady in this video who has something defined as body integrity disorder in which she lives mostly as a paralysed woman and is hoping to find a surgeon to paralyse her. If she moved to Canada they'd sort her out in the blink of an eye, then probably give her some psychedelics, talk her into MAID and turn her into soylent green 

[Potash]

But why is this your problem?

What right do you have to tell other people how to live their lives?

Freedom of choice. Body autonomy and all that.

[Gritter]

It's not my problem. Did I say I had an issue with it? No.

[Oldmanmatt]

It's not my problem. Did I say I had an issue with it? No.

And yet, here you are, again.

Fascinating.


And Alex, such absolutes!

Oh to be so sure, to see the world so clearly.

Must be so much easier than trying to understand.

And yet, you both seem really quite stressed.

Can’t be good for you.

[mrjonathanr]

She is not fit to teach children.

Impressive that you, behind your keyboard, can determine what the GTC would need a full investigation to establish. And all you needed was a child’s TikTok!

[andy moles]

FWIW my sister-in-law does teach a child who reported identifying as a cat (might still do, I don't know).

Is this a genuine original case though, or is the child a...copycat?

 

[mrjonathanr]

Jokes aside, all this ‘identifying as (insert something ridiculous)’ is just a way of ridiculing and attacking the validity of what must be very painful for the people involved in these issues.

If I can identify as something plainly impossible, the process of self-identifying must be inherently nonsense, mustn’t it?

[andy moles]

Jokes aside, all this ‘identifying as (insert something ridiculous)’ is just a way of ridiculing and attacking the validity of what must be very painful for the people involved in these issues.

Yeah, absolutely. Better to approach the ridiculous ones with humour rather than outrage though, I feel.

I myself can appreciate wishing to identify as a cat (having several cattish traits and tendencies), though not to the exclusion of being a man.

[Wellsy]

Thread about trans issues derailed into "but what if kids identified as helicopters/cats/formula one cars!!!!!" In extremely predictable gender critical nonsense move

[ducko]

Well worth a listen.

If you’re an adult who wants to spend their life pretending you’re something you’re not then cool, but don’t infringe on women’s spaces and leave the children alone.

The amount of nonsense being pushed onto impressionable kids by some adults it’s absolutely disgusting in my opinion.


I did enjoy the young girls doing a fabulous job of educating their teacher (regarding the cat incident)
At the same time it’s pretty concerning, conform or suffer the consequences children!

[slab_happy]

Jokes aside, all this ‘identifying as (insert something ridiculous)’ is just a way of ridiculing and attacking the validity of what must be very painful for the people involved in these issues.

If I can identify as something plainly impossible, the process of self-identifying must be inherently nonsense, mustn’t it?

A.k.a the One Joke:

https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/one_joke

Arguably, it's a version of the old line used against same-sex marriage --"if you allow people to marry someone of the same sex, next they'll want to marry a DOG, next they'll want to marry a TOASTER" etc. etc..

In the immortal words of Hannah Gadsby, "I identify as tired."

[slab_happy]

My understanding is anthropomorphism has a complex relationship with the LGBTQIA+ community ranging from Furry Fandom to more fetishised BDSM Pup Play, although according to online information anybody is welcome to engage in pup play and furryfandom at a platonic level or something that may be more sexually explorative such as being a 'pup' and having a 'handler'.

This friendly article discusses the myths and facts in relation UK schools

https://oursaferschools.co.uk/2023/04/24/furries/

This website is quite extensive and provides an FAQ's page about 'the science'

https://furscience.com

This website is dedicated to pup play across the spectrum from platonic fun to BDSM

https://www.pupspace.net/en-US/Home/FAQ

and this is an interesting and darkly amusing video of a German 'Pride' event for the serious fringe identity of Zoophile, note I'm not advocating zoophilia and believe the rights of the German Shepard in question as well as the Zoophile community members must be carefully balanced. Until 'the science' catches up with and recognises the validity of the relationships in question, possibly through the use of fMRI scanner showing how the part of the limbic system associated with desire and love, lights up when the dog is presented with the partner.

1) There is no child at this school who identifies as a cat. There never was.

2) This has nothing to do with furries. Furries are people who like dressing up as anthropomorphized animals. They don't believe they literally are animals. As with other groups of people, some furries are also LGBTQIA+, some of them aren't.

The (false) claim wasn't that a child at this school was a furry, but that they literally "identified as a cat".

3) Are you seriously trying to imply that the LGBTQIA+ community has anything to do with bestiality?

Until 'the science' catches up with and recognises the validity of the relationships in question, possibly through the use of fMRI scanner showing how the part of the limbic system associated with desire and love, lights up when the dog is presented with the partner.

You seem to be going out of your way to imply that fucking a dog is somehow comparable or related to being gay or trans or has some kind of relevance to this topic.

Is that really where you want to go with this? Really?

Also,  you're linking to a video from a channel which appears to feature rants about fluoride in water, claims that Oprah Winfrey is a pedophile, "#andrewtate talking about #taliban spitting facts about their war with Zionist and #atheists", a lot of Trump videos, a lot of videos about how the Russians are just being the awesome-est in Ukraine, and a video gloating over the burning of a hotel housing refugees.

Interesting viewing choices you have there.

[slab_happy]

We have Slab citing vanishingly rare intersex disorders to try to poke holes in the definition of biological sex, while proposing to replace it with something called "gender identity" that they cannot even begin to define.

You couldn't make this shit up.

And yet, you did make it up:

gender identity (the little internal sense that says "I'm a man" or "I'm a woman" or "none of the above thank you").

I've said we don't know what the hell causes it or why people experience it in such diverse ways, but there you go, that's a definition for you right there.

It's one thing to support those medical interventions but Slab also wants to pretend that there aren't reasonable clinicians (including national medical bodies) who disagree, and that is just not sustainable.

Dude, I've literally been reading the documents you linked to and pointing out what they actually say.

For those of you who still have an open mind, please consider carefully whether the judgement of history will be kind to those who used specious arguments to justify cutting off the healthy breasts of 13 year old girls. Ignorance is no longer an excuse.

You understand that, as I've already mentioned, no-one's getting top surgery in the UK before the age of 18 (on the NHS), or maaaaybe in a few cases 17 privately?

Like how your "15-year-old" who was getting top surgery turned out not to be, as soon as I read the actual article you linked to?

And now we've gone down to 13-year-olds. They'll be 11-year-olds by the next mention!

Incidentally, speaking as someone who is, I believe, one of very few people in this thread to actually have breasts --

It's really creepy how people seem to think that the most horrific thing in the world is for someone assigned female at birth, who is considered old enough and capable of giving informed consent (and who is in almost all cases, a legal adult), to have a mastectomy.

Oh wait, a mastectomy, gotta bold it.

Forget their psychological wellbeing or what they might imagine they want (in their silly little girl brains), the most important thing is whether or not they still have tits!

Are they healthy? Who cares! The important thing is that the tits are healthy.

Of course, men with gynecomastia can get surgery for it, and I imagine a few of them get it at 17 (though again, not on the NHS). If you trawl the internet enough, you can probably find a few cases in the world of people getting it younger.

Where's your outrage about "cutting off the healthy breasts" of teenage boys?

Or do you, perhaps, think that if a young cis man has breasts and this is causing him severe distress and discomfort with his body because they don't fit his gender, he should (in consultation with medical professionals, if they think it's an appropriate treatment option) get to decide what to do about it?

[Gritter]

My point is, Slabs, that 'pseudo science' can enable anything.

[slab_happy]

No doubt there are complexities at the margins, but for me this is at its core an extremely simple issue, and one that (for me) begins in the personal: I have trans friends and colleagues. I believe they deserve to lead their lives with the same dignity, safety, and rights that I enjoy. That's it.

Thank you. There's a whole lot of this "debate" that gets very simple if you know anyone who's trans (or are trans yourself, of course).

This is about real human beings.

Here are some fun questions for Alex B, Gritter and co.:

Do you have any trans friends? Do you know any trans people? Any families with trans children?

Or is all this outrage about a group of people you have no direct knowledge of at all?

I'm not saying that firsthand knowledge the only way of learning about an issue!

But it’s a huge problem if the "trans debate" is being carried out (in general, not just here) not only in a way that often doesn't involve any trans voices at all, but where the vast majority of people "debating" don't know a single trans person.

Pick another minority group, frame their entire existence as "the X debate" or "the X issue" (“the X question” has gone out of fashion for some reason …), and imagine that debate being carried on almost entirely by people who've never even met a member of that group.

[tim palmer]

Of course, men with gynecomastia can get surgery for it, and I imagine a few of them get it at 17 (though again, not on the NHS). If you trawl the internet enough, you can probably find a few cases in the world of people getting it younger.

Where's your outrage about "cutting off the healthy breasts" of teenage boys?

Or do you, perhaps, think that if a young cis man has breasts and this is causing him severe distress and discomfort with his body because they don't fit his gender, he should (in consultation with medical professionals, if they think it's an appropriate treatment option) get to decide what to do about it?

I don't want to get involved in this larger debate but you are really creating an unhelpful false equivalence here.   There are huge differences in aetiology, complexity and consequence between the two things you are conflating.

[petejh]

Thank you. There's a whole lot of this "debate" that gets very simple if you know anyone who's trans (or are trans yourself, of course).

This is about real human beings.

100% this. There are things Slab has asserted here that I'm undecided about, some I strongly disagree with, and some I strongly agree with. But this^ is the most important point. It doesn't conveniently eliminate all the questions and concerns, it's a frame to view them through.

A bit of reading up on ancient tribal communities suggests trans gender hasn't just appeared out of nowhere and has always been a part of humanity. What's different now is awareness and the spreading of ideas, through the curse in disguise of the internet, and the potential mass-awareness brings for bandwagon behaviour and trend-following which is what a lot of concerns boil down to (thin end of the wedgie).

Personally I'm enjoying seeing Slab's views challenged through (some) intelligent debate, it's through debate you learn more about a topic. I don't feel that I need to agree with either of them to take their opinions on board and consider them. 


edit, was also going to say, to those who are debating on the point about concern about harm/self-harm - look around you... The population is in a state of chronic obesity with all the related destruction to health this brings, it's the biggest harm/self harm epidemic in perhaps all of human history. Loads of kids' lifelong health outcomes are being negatively impacted by the eating habits of western society (and yes profit, industry, policy, among other things, are all culpable). Might want to consider scale of risk here, and ask yourself how much of your concern for children's health stems from trans people being very obviously 'other' compared with the 'normal' parent, partner or child with pre-diabetes.

[Potash]

The amount of nonsense being pushed onto impressionable kids by some adults it’s absolutely disgusting in my opinion.

I assume you are equally outraged by religious education?

Do you also want to police other aspects of children's behaviour to prevent children making long lasting decisions they will have to live with the rest of their lives. Ban under 18 from bouldering as it's dangerous and they cannot understand the consequences of their actions?

It's the nanny state reinvented