[Gritter]

I believe what Cantor was apparently asserting is that trans-identifying people would grow up to be homosexual-to-their-biological-gender (which, as they didn't transition, would also be their current gender ...

And I suspect what slab_happy is referring to is post-transition TGs being homosexual-to-their-current-gender, i.e. actually heterosexual-to-their-biological-gender, which would refute that.

Ah, that would make sense - me being dumb. Derivatives are far easier than this shit.

There you go..... you just needed to tune into the Newspeak delivered by the Ministry of Truth's pr0nosec Division. Emitted from the Telescreen, Newspeak aids in developing your capacity for Doublethink and reduces the likelihood of committing Thoughtcrime. Thoughtcrime will not go unnoticed by the Inner-party, repeated offences will lead to you being Unpersoned.

[slab_happy]

Hang on Slab..

Also, as I've mentioned before, the majority of trans people are not heterosexual anyway:

https://www.thetaskforce.org/news/wonky-wednesday-trans-people-and-sexual-orientation/

Is this not saying the same as what Gritter said, which you say isn't true? 'A trans-identifying child if left untreated will usually grow up to be a homosexual adult'?

No angle, except curiosity.

Ah, this is probably my fault (I vaguely saw it coming) for not clarifying whether the question was about being homosexual before or after transition.

I believe what Cantor was apparently asserting is that trans-identifying people would grow up to be homosexual-to-their-biological-gender (which, as they didn't transition, would also be their current gender, with then a leap of faith to "they were just gay, they were never truly TG after all", which seems to ignore the possibility they're still latently TG and still living the biological gender lie).

And I suspect what slab_happy is referring to is post-transition TGs being homosexual-to-their-current-gender, i.e. actually heterosexual-to-their-biological-gender, which would refute that.

Bingo!

The theory being pushed is that (for example) a kid assigned female at birth who says they're a boy is really just a "tomboy" who's "meant" to grow up to be a lesbian woman, and will naturally do that if they're prevented from transitioning.

So transitioning would make them into a straight trans man rather than a lesbian woman.

This is what people are claiming when they talk about "trans-ing the gay away" -- the idea is that it's making straight trans people out of kids who were "meant" to be gay/lesbian instead.

Sometimes the theory is that it's propelled by homophobia, internalized and otherwise -- the kid knows that they're attracted to girls, so they think this means they must "really" be a boy. And then the evil professionals enable them to transition because they hate lesbians.

However, as a matter of empirical fact, a huge number of trans men are not straight. Quite a lot of them are gay -- i.e. they're attracted to other men and not to women at all. If they identified as women, they'd be "straight women"; by transitioning, they become gay men.

And I suspect what slab_happy is referring to is post-transition TGs being homosexual-to-their-current-gender, i.e. actually heterosexual-to-their-biological-gender, which would refute that.

Also a very substantial percentage are bisexual, so they're non-straight whatever you think their gender is.

[slab_happy]

However, as a matter of empirical fact, a huge number of trans men are not straight. Quite a lot of them are gay -- i.e. they're attracted to other men and not to women at all. If they identified as women, they'd be "straight women"; by transitioning, they become gay men.

If you want the full digression here, Google "Lou Sullivan", because historically, gay trans men had to fight a hell of a battle to be allowed to transition.

For many decades, you were only allowed to transition if you were going to fit a nice stereotypical heterosexual and gender-conforming role afterwards.

As I mentioned before, the medical narrative presented by doctors for ages was that (for example) a "true transsexual" woman is someone who was always stereotypically extremely feminine and sexually attracted only to men and not to women at all, so transition tidies up the gender categories and makes them into a nice "normal" straight woman.

At some clinics, the criteria for treatment involved whether the clinician thought they'd make an attractive woman or not. Literally, if the doctor didn't think you looked fuckable enough, you didn't get treatment.

It's trans people who went "yeah, no, this is bullshit."

[slab_happy]

The paper Gritter linked to is interesting, possibly not in the way he hoped.
Referring to “affirming the child’s false belief” in reference to certain treatment protocols, without, as far as I could see, any evidence that the belief was false; merely assuming it was.
Lots of talk about the effects or potential effects of drug/ hormone intervention and an implication that it is or is about to be used on very young children, yet (almost quietly) admits that such treatment is prohibited for anyone under 16 years of age (pretty late into puberty, surely? Most males and almost all females have passed through by 16, surely).
Worth a read.

Plus, it is wholly in reference to the US policies and regimes, not the UK.

Also, it's by Michelle Cretella.

When she wrote this, she was the president of the American College of Pediatricians — not to be confused with the mainstream group the American Academy of Pediatrics, though they named themselves so as to cause maximum confusion and sound like a reputable group.

Instead, they're a tiny splinter group who broke away in protest when the AAP endorsed allowing gay people to adopt children, because they're so virulently homophobic they believe that gay people will corrupt and damage any children they bring up.

When the Supreme Court legalized same-sex marriage, Cretella called it "a tragic day for America's children."

They maintain that being gay is linked to pedophilia, and claim that gay and lesbian people can be “cured” by conversion therapy. They're also extreme "pro-lifers" who are heavily involved in the attempt to ban mifepristone.

The Southern Poverty Law Center officially classify them a hate group:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_College_of_Pediatricians
https://www.splcenter.org/fighting-hate/extremist-files/group/american-college-pediatricians

Now, I personally think that all speaks rather directly to their credibility.

This is like someone linking to an article and saying it's a "common sense" view of immigration, and then you look and it's written by Tommy Robinson.

[Gritter]

You're 'playing the player not the ball' which is Ad Hominem or alternatively the 'appeal to authority', just like the antisemitic ADL stuff was nonsense. Neither of them are arguments which dispute the points made in the interviews which are the same points made by others such as Ray Blanchard. It's really a straightforward point that a watchful waiting approach to gender dysphoria in 99.99999% of cases is preferable to blocking puberty, starting hormone therapy and ultimately removing sexual organs and breasts. One of many good reasons for this is the high incidence of complex mental health problems in gender dysphoric children stemming from childhood abuse including violence, sexual trauma, bullying, neglect and isolation. These mental health problems include complex PTSD, dissociative disorders, personality disorder including borderline and fragile narcissism, and various forms of anxiety and depressive disorders. This is without going into the cultural contagion aspects of the problem during teenage years when developing identities in a increasingly complex world is a total minefield, leading to vulnerable people being exposed to many different influences including online grooming by adults taking an interest in gender dysphoric and lonely youths. This is a common sense article from 2016 which pretty much sums up my thoughts on the matter.

https://cplaction.com/wp-content/uploads/cretella-GenderDysphoriaInChildren.pdf

The question, for me, isn't whether this or that person is a transphobic far right christian antisemitic jewish nazi, it is this - what is the best possible care pathway for a child presenting with gender dysphoria / gender non conformity. Taking into account two important points, firstly they are a child and secondly the health professions have a duty of care part of which is to 'do no harm'. (I think we're agreed that adults have bodily autonomy and can do what the medical profession and society allows with in the bounds of ethics and in a compassionate model of care)

If my 8 year old son / daughter comes to me and says 'I think I may be a boy / girl' what should the ideal care pathway lookalike?

[petejh]

You started posting on this thread 9 days ago, and it's taken you until now via multiple shit-posts to ask a half-decent question. Well done champ.

[slab_happy]

For an alternative perspective the Reddit Detrans community is a good read, lots of interesting stories.

https://www.reddit.com/r/detrans/

Ritchie Herron is an outspoken voice for those going through de-transition in the UK.

You just bounce on to a new thing each time your previous one gets discredited, don't you?

Some useful context on the subject of detransitioners, incidentally:

https://slate.com/human-interest/2021/02/detransition-movement-star-ex-gay-explained.html
https://xtramagazine.com/power/detransition-terf-movement-elisa-shupe-247592

[slab_happy]

The question, for me, isn't whether this or that person is a transphobic far right christian antisemitic jewish nazi, it is this - what is the best possible care pathway for a child presenting with gender dysphoria / gender non conformity.

And apparently you think that someone like Cantor (who has admitted under oath that he has exactly zero relevant experience) or Michelle Cretella (who is a virulent homophobe ideologue who thinks gay people are a danger to children) is a trustworthy and reputable source to advise on this.

The question, for me, isn't whether this or that person is a transphobic far right christian antisemitic jewish nazi

Dunno about you, but I think it matters just a teensy bit if someone's a Nazi or not.

If all the sources you cite are discredited and/or extremist bigots, that doesn't do a lot for your case.

[slab_happy]

what is the best possible care pathway for a child presenting with gender dysphoria / gender non conformity.

The question, for me, isn't whether this or that person is a transphobic far right christian antisemitic jewish nazi, it is this - what is the best possible care pathway for a child presenting with gender dysphoria / gender non conformity.

And apparently you think that someone like Cantor (who has admitted under oath that he has exactly zero relevant experience) or Michelle Cretella (who is a virulent homophobe ideologue who thinks gay people are a danger to children) is a trustworthy and reputable source to advise on this.

The question, for me, isn't whether this or that person is a transphobic far right christian antisemitic jewish nazi

Dunno about you, but I think it matters just a teensy bit if someone's a Nazi or not.

If all the sources you cite are discredited and/or extremist bigots, that doesn't do a lot for your case.

Also "gender dysphoria" and "gender non-conformity" are two very different things. This is rather an important distinction.

The fact that you don't grasp this suggests you may not have been paying much attention.

[Oldmanmatt]

You're 'playing the player not the ball' which is Ad Hominem or alternatively the 'appeal to authority', just like the antisemitic ADL stuff was nonsense. Neither of them are arguments which dispute the points made in the interviews which are the same points made by others such as Ray Blanchard. It's really a straightforward point that a watchful waiting approach to gender dysphoria in 99.99999% of cases is preferable to blocking puberty, starting hormone therapy and ultimately removing sexual organs and breasts. One of many good reasons for this is the high incidence of complex mental health problems in gender dysphoric children stemming from childhood abuse including violence, sexual trauma, bullying, neglect and isolation. These mental health problems include complex PTSD, dissociative disorders, personality disorder including borderline and fragile narcissism, and various forms of anxiety and depressive disorders. This is without going into the cultural contagion aspects of the problem during teenage years when developing identities in a increasingly complex world is a total minefield, leading to vulnerable people being exposed to many different influences including online grooming by adults taking an interest in gender dysphoric and lonely youths. This is a common sense article from 2016 which pretty much sums up my thoughts on the matter.

https://cplaction.com/wp-content/uploads/cretella-GenderDysphoriaInChildren.pdf

The question, for me, isn't whether this or that person is a transphobic far right christian antisemitic jewish nazi, it is this - what is the best possible care pathway for a child presenting with gender dysphoria / gender non conformity. Taking into account two important points, firstly they are a child and secondly the health professions have a duty of care part of which is to 'do no harm'. (I think we're agreed that adults have bodily autonomy and can do what the medical profession and society allows with in the bounds of ethics and in a compassionate model of care)

If my 8 year old son / daughter comes to me and says 'I think I may be a boy / girl' what should the ideal care pathway lookalike?

Go back. Read through again, because that’s all been covered, you just refuse to listen/read.

Oh, and yes, yes it does matter that your “evidence” comes from those sources. Not to mention, you have failed to show that any of these treatments are being or will be applied to anyone inappropriately, except in cases of malpractice. The rest of your shtick is scaremongering.

[joel182]

Yep, if you are serious that you think trans people and their rights should be respected and are willing to stand up when those rights are under attack then the term is "trans rights activist".

People attending a Trans Pride picnic in Bristol were attacked yesterday. Thankfully no serious injuries, but this is the unfortunate reality of being publicly trans in the UK right now.

[Gritter]

Going back to the beginning of the thread and reading through, I notice even the mighty Sean Kenny ran for the hills 

I'll keep you updated when if I find a bit that answers this question

The question, for me, isn't whether this or that person is a transphobic far right christian antisemitic jewish nazi, it is this - what is the best possible care pathway for a child presenting with gender dysphoria / gender non conformity. Taking into account two important points, firstly they are a child and secondly the health professions have a duty of care part of which is to 'do no harm'. (I think we're agreed that adults have bodily autonomy and can do what the medical profession and society allows with in the bounds of ethics and in a compassionate model of care)

If my 8 year old son / daughter comes to me and says 'I think I may be a boy / girl' what should the ideal care pathway lookalike?

[Gritter]

Three pages in and as far as I can tell no one has argued about anything of substance, just argued about the people arguing 

Some people will hate the following anecdote, but still... The only child/adolescent mental health professional that I've ever had a conversation with where this topic popped up was convinced that all the young trans people they had interacted with had significant other underlying issues. But they essentially said that the conversation around this was something most wouldn't go near because of how toxic it is. It would be interesting to know how widely that view is shared, but I doubt it's easy to get many people to talk openly. (I obviously have have no view on the substance of what they said)

Abarro81 then called it on page 3

[slab_happy]

If my 8 year old son / daughter comes to me and says 'I think I may be a boy / girl' what should the ideal care pathway lookalike?

It's manipulative framing to talk in terms of a "care pathway" as if it's some inexorable medical track kids get placed on.

You know what hormonal or other medical treatment an 8-year-old who thinks they might be trans will get at that age?

ABSOLUTELY NONE.

Kids don't get prescribed puberty blockers until they've actually started puberty (at the very earliest), because before that there's nothing to block.

(Unless they've already hit Tanner stage 2 of puberty by age 8, in which case they'd qualify for a diagnosis of "precocious puberty", which is a whole separate problem, and they’d potentially be prescribed puberty blockers for that.)

There is no "ideal pathway" because it's going to depend on the individual child, what they need, what they want, and what they figure out about who they are.

The only "ideals" you can specify are things like providing them with support and acceptance, and giving them a safe space to explore who they are and try out different possibilities at their own pace, without feeling any pressure in any direction.

There are rules of thumb, like seeing if kids are "insistent, consistent and persistent" about their gender as an indicator about whether social transition might be appropriate, if that’s something they want.

But basically, it should be led by their needs. There is no one-size-fits-all "care pathway" they should be "put on".

That's the point.

[Gritter]

So in summary, the consensus from the thread is, when a child presents with the modern form of gender dysphoria, they should be assessed by healthcare professionals with expertise in that area, and if appropriate they should begin a slow process of social and biological transition with the opportunity for a window in care of about a year when nearing puberty. During this window they will come off puberty blockers before beginning hormone therapy. This will reduce the risk of any lasting effects of puberty blockers such a underdeveloped genitalia and sterility, should the child wish to desist?

[Gritter]

Ah right, they must begin puberty before starting on the blockers. gotcha

[Gritter]

This appear to be a good resource from the University of California, well written, informative and evidenced. I've not found the bit on care of children yet, but I think it answers all my questions about what the ideal service might look like. I don't particularly agree with medical transition, but then it's up to the individuals and their significant others to work that out.

https://transcare.ucsf.edu/guidelines

plus child and adolescent section

https://www.ucsfbenioffchildrens.org/clinics/child-and-adolescent-gender-center

[Oldmanmatt]

This appear to be a good resource from the University of California, well written, informative and evidenced. I've not found the bit on care of children yet, but I think it answers all my questions about what the ideal service might look like. I don't particularly agree with medical transition, but then it's up to the individuals and their significant others to work that out.

https://transcare.ucsf.edu/guidelines

plus child and adolescent section

https://www.ucsfbenioffchildrens.org/clinics/child-and-adolescent-gender-center

Again, there’s a bit of ocean in there you keep forgetting, though, possibly you are just as bright as you appear?

Have you not clicked that everybody finds you a bit too silly to keep arguing with? I’m just a bit bored, so thought I’d give you the excuse to dig yourself deeper into your little hole.

Fascinating really, a bluebottle bouncing off a closed window, gradually getting more incensed and less coherent as it thrashes out it’s little life.
Oblivious, of course, to the many hands trying to waft it towards the open window, so close by.

Well done, congratulations, you have won.

Quite sure you have convinced everyone and we’re all really grateful for your wisdom and thoughtful insight.

I, for one, shall now run for the hills.



Sn**ger.

[slab_happy]

Ah right, they must begin puberty before starting on the blockers. gotcha

Yup. Before puberty starts, there literally isn't anything to block, so puberty blockers wouldn't do anything.

As I understand it, clinics will typically wait at least until they see initial physical signs of puberty (Tanner stage 2) before they consider prescribing blockers, both so they know there's something to block, and so they can see how the child feels about everything at that point.

This will reduce the risk of any lasting effects of puberty blockers such a underdeveloped genitalia and sterility, should the child wish to desist?

If the child "desists" and stops taking the puberty blockers without going onto cross-sex hormones, they'll go through their natal puberty, which just got put on hold. That's how it works.

This is why they've been used since the early '80s to treat kids with precocious puberty, without anyone batting an eyelid. None of those kids ended up with "underdeveloped genitalia or sterility"!

For kids who do want to transition and who went on puberty blockers very early on in puberty (so their sperm/ova haven't had time to mature), then I gather some clinics are experimenting with a planned window in which you stop puberty blockers and then wait for a year (IIRC) before starting cross-sex hormones, in order to enable them to retain fertility. 

As I understand it, this is new and experimental, and I'm not an endocrinologist so can't in any way judge the potential pros and cons, but it's an attempt to solve the problem.

But if kids just want to desist, it's not an issue -- they stop the puberty blockers and go through their natal puberty.

[slab_happy]

This appear to be a good resource from the University of California, well written, informative and evidenced. I've not found the bit on care of children yet, but I think it answers all my questions about what the ideal service might look like. I don't particularly agree with medical transition, but then it's up to the individuals and their significant others to work that out.

https://transcare.ucsf.edu/guidelines

plus child and adolescent section

https://www.ucsfbenioffchildrens.org/clinics/child-and-adolescent-gender-center

Again, there’s a bit of ocean in there you keep forgetting, though, possibly you are just as bright as you appear?

Have you not clicked that everybody finds you a bit too silly to keep arguing with? I’m just a bit bored, so thought I’d give you the excuse to dig yourself deeper into your little hole.

Fascinating really, a bluebottle bouncing off a closed window, gradually getting more incensed and less coherent as it thrashes out it’s little life.
Oblivious, of course, to the many hands trying to waft it towards the open window, so close by.

Well done, congratulations, you have won.

Quite sure you have convinced everyone and we’re all really grateful for your wisdom and thoughtful insight.

I, for one, shall now run for the hills.



Sn**ger.

Hey, the thing he's linked to does actually endorse puberty-blockers and then cross-sex hormones for trans kids (when it's considered appropriate for a particular child, naturally).

I don't know if Gritter might be moderating his views, but this is different from some of his previous links.

[Oldmanmatt]

If my 8 year old son / daughter comes to me and says 'I think I may be a boy / girl' what should the ideal care pathway lookalike?

It's manipulative framing to talk in terms of a "care pathway" as if it's some inexorable medical track kids get placed on.

You know what hormonal or other medical treatment an 8-year-old who thinks they might be trans will get at that age?

ABSOLUTELY NONE.

Kids don't get prescribed puberty blockers until they've actually started puberty (at the very earliest), because before that there's nothing to block.

(Unless they've already hit Tanner stage 2 of puberty by age 8, in which case they'd qualify for a diagnosis of "precocious puberty", which is a whole separate problem, and they’d potentially be prescribed puberty blockers for that.)

There is no "ideal pathway" because it's going to depend on the individual child, what they need, what they want, and what they figure out about who they are.

The only "ideals" you can specify are things like providing them with support and acceptance, and giving them a safe space to explore who they are and try out different possibilities at their own pace, without feeling any pressure in any direction.

There are rules of thumb, like seeing if kids are "insistent, consistent and persistent" about their gender as an indicator about whether social transition might be appropriate, if that’s something they want.

But basically, it should be led by their needs. There is no one-size-fits-all "care pathway" they should be "put on".

That's the point.

He’s not going to listen and every time you respond he will, selectively, find something that you have written to misrepresent.
In the above, you have tried to explain the individuality and uniqueness of each case etc etc. He will think you just admitted he was right.
Nothing you say, ever, will convince him that there are not hundreds of children being put on puberty blockers or whatever, everyday, by an evil cabal of mad scientists and doctors.
For what it’s worth, I have learned a lot from this thread.
Considering I’m a bald, middle aged, male, middle class, former military, former Conservative Party member; who should by all stereotypical measures be a Telegraph reading, swivel eyed loon and firmly behind him, I’d not hesitate to talk to you, should one of my teens have any issues in this area.
Thank you for trying. Thank you for the effort.

Illegitimi non carborundum and all that.

[Wellsy]

This appear to be a good resource from the University of California, well written, informative and evidenced. I've not found the bit on care of children yet, but I think it answers all my questions about what the ideal service might look like. I don't particularly agree with medical transition, but then it's up to the individuals and their significant others to work that out.

https://transcare.ucsf.edu/guidelines

plus child and adolescent section

https://www.ucsfbenioffchildrens.org/clinics/child-and-adolescent-gender-center

Again, there’s a bit of ocean in there you keep forgetting, though, possibly you are just as bright as you appear?

Have you not clicked that everybody finds you a bit too silly to keep arguing with? I’m just a bit bored, so thought I’d give you the excuse to dig yourself deeper into your little hole.

Fascinating really, a bluebottle bouncing off a closed window, gradually getting more incensed and less coherent as it thrashes out it’s little life.
Oblivious, of course, to the many hands trying to waft it towards the open window, so close by.

Well done, congratulations, you have won.

Quite sure you have convinced everyone and we’re all really grateful for your wisdom and thoughtful insight.

I, for one, shall now run for the hills.



Sn**ger.

"A zealot is someone who won't change their mind and won't change the conversation"

[Gritter]

Could one of you midwit cunts give me another -ve Karma? I'm feeling all out of balance

[slab_happy]

Just trying to get my head around gender dysphoria not being gender dysphoria 

So:

"gender identity disorder" = old label, from old edition of the diagnostic manual (DSM), no longer used, specific set of diagnostic criteria

"gender dysphoria" = new label, SIGNIFICANTLY DIFFERENT set of criteria

The old category of "gender identity disorder" scooped up a lot of kids who were gender non-conforming, even if they identified as the gender they were assigned at birth -- e.g. a kid who was assigned male at birth and who identifies as a boy, but who also wants to wear dresses and play with dolls. That could be more than enough to earn you a GID diagnosis.

And kids absolutely did get put into intensive therapy or even hospitalized to try to "cure" this sort of "gender variant behaviour". The treatment accounts are horrific.

But the new category's criteria require that you have to actually identify as a gender different from the one you were assigned at birth.

As explained by the APA in covering the changes between DSM-IV and DSM-V, this "makes the diagnosis more restrictive and conservative."

So the criteria now aim to exclude kids who are gender non-conforming but not trans.

The shift from “gender identity disorder” to “gender dysphoria” is also a change in framing.

The old position was that “displaying gender-variant behaviour is a mental illness, even if someone is totally fine and happy with how they are.” The new position is “the problem is when someone is experiencing suffering ('dysphoria') because their gender identity doesn’t match the one they were assigned at birth.”

Because the psychiatric consensus now is that being trans in itself doesn’t seem to be a “mental illness” as we understand that term. What causes suffering is the mismatch, and it’s typically relieved by allowing people to transition.

[slab_happy]

For what it’s worth, I have learned a lot from this thread.

I'm really glad! Honestly, that's why I engage on stuff like this, when I have the energy -- I figure someone might be listening, even if it's not necessarily the person I'm arguing with.

Considering I’m a bald, middle aged, male, middle class, former military, former Conservative Party member; who should by all stereotypical measures be a Telegraph reading, swivel eyed loon and firmly behind him, I’d not hesitate to talk to you, should one of my teens have any issues in this area.

If that were to be the case, I'd recommend finding actual trans people and parents of trans kids to talk to over me, because they're the real experts; as mentioned, I am just a nerd with a bunch of trans/nb friends.

But I'll take the compliment, thank you!