[gme]

Probably needs a IFSC 2023 setting up.

Results coming in for quals today. Can someone explain to me how Max Milne is 15th with 2 tops 4 zone (6-10) and yet Hamish is 21st with 3 tops and 4 zones (6-7)

Am i just being thick.

[sherlock]

No, not thick just easy to miss.
Two groups, A & B, you need to look at both groups, Hamish 12lth in group A , Max 9th in group B.Top ten in each group go through.
Not over yet though!

[erm, sam]

is it only on eurosport like last season?

[Stabbsy]

Usually two different sets of qualifying boulders, so you need to finish top 10 (plus ties) in your set.

[sherlock]

is it only on eurosport like last season?

No qualis live don't think but as far as I can tell Semis and Finals on Discovery.
If memory serves it was a 3 year deal.

[gme]

No, not thick just easy to miss.
Two groups, A & B, you need to look at both groups, Hamish 12lth in group A , Max 9th in group B.Top ten in each group go through.
Not over yet though!

I was being thick as i should have known that.

Why it doesn't show it in two groups on the IFSC website i will never know. It truly is a piece of shit. Took me 10 mins to even find the scores.

[edshakey]

This'll make your life a lot easier

https://ifsc.results.info/#/

[teestub]

Ah ha the link I was looking for, thanks! Really not sure why that isn’t their front page rather then the horrendous results lay out there

[jwi]

So 8 out of 20 in the women semis are Japanese? And 7 out of 20 in the mens? I noticed that 5 French men are through to the semis as well, but only one french woman, where notably Oriane Bertone and Fanny Gibert had surprisingly bad scores.

[gme]

Only Jim through for UK.

I thought we might do well this season. Only 1st comp I guess.

Shows the depth of the field.

[Bradders]

Only Jim through for UK.

I thought we might do well this season. Only 1st comp I guess.

Shows the depth of the field.

Think I'm right in saying both Hamish McArthur and Toby Roberts would have made it if they'd been in Group B. Harsh.

[edshakey]

Only Jim through for UK.

I thought we might do well this season. Only 1st comp I guess.

Shows the depth of the field.

Think I'm right in saying both Hamish McArthur and Toby Roberts would have made it if they'd been in Group B. Harsh.

I might be just pointing out what you already know... but Group A must have had easier boulders. It's impossible to compare when the boulders aren't two identical sets (sometimes a boulder or two are actual copies of each other but the rest are just the same kinda style/moves). So Toby and Hamish would probably have done similarly had they been in the other group.

[Bradders]

Ah right I didn't realise the boulders were different between the two groups.

[remus]

Presumably there's a fair amount of luck in terms of who is in each group. If you end up in a strong group you could theoretically be well in to the top 20 (if you could make some perfect ranking of competitors), but not make the top 10 I'm your group and therefore be kicked out in favour of weaker climbers in the other group.

[edshakey]

I might be wrong on this, but I believe the groups are derived from world rankings, or season rankings, or similar. So top of said rankings goes into group 1, second goes in 2, third in 1, so on, so on. That'd end up with as fair groups as possible, right?

Maybe Graeme can correct me on that at some point.

[jwi]

I might be wrong on this, but I believe the groups are derived from world rankings, or season rankings, or similar. So top of said rankings goes into group 1, second goes in 2, third in 1, so on, so on. That'd end up with as fair groups as possible, right?

This is what I understand as well.

I guess it can be a bit of a lottery in Japan as their extra allowance of competitors due to organising would be ranked ≈ top 12 in the world if they were allowed to compete a full season but are currently unranked or have very sanbagged world rankings.

Women's semis must have been hard! Not many tops, and many slightly surprising names in the top 6. Miho Nonaka, Natalia Grossman and Futaba Ito all missed the final.

[remus]

I might be wrong on this, but I believe the groups are derived from world rankings, or season rankings, or similar. So top of said rankings goes into group 1, second goes in 2, third in 1, so on, so on. That'd end up with as fair groups as possible, right?

Maybe Graeme can correct me on that at some point.

Makes sense.

To add to jwi's point, I wonder if it's a bit more random early in the season, assuming the rankings are effectively a bit out of date because the field hasn't competed against each other recently.

[thunderbeest]

Max two tops at women semi,. The scores are really weird.
Is it getting more and more about luck?

[wasbeen]

I would be strongly in favour of scrapping the semis and having a 2 day final with half the competitors eliminated after the first day. There is just so much variability in the type of problems that can be set and effect of height etc. and a lot of potential for perceived unfairness.

[edshakey]

Max two tops at women semi,. The scores are really weird.
Is it getting more and more about luck?

Potentially, but also it's always hard to tell who's in form, and the general level of the field, in the first comp of the year. Added to that, lots of climbers at the top like Janja and Natalia spent most of last season asking for harder boulders. So i'm sure they can hardly have any complaints when that happens!

Only one boulder didn't get topped in semis, that's actually a decent set IMO. Especially since it had varying attempts to get the zone - better than a boulder where the top 10 all flash it, giving no separation

I would be strongly in favour of scrapping the semis and having a 2 day final with half the competitors eliminated after the first day. There is just so much variability in the type of problems that can be set and effect of height etc. There is currently a lot of potential for perceived unfairness.

I'm not sure I follow. Would it be 20 people do final part 1, and then 10 people do final part 2? Sounds a lot like the current system! 

[wasbeen]

Max two tops at women semi,. The scores are really weird.
Is it getting more and more about luck?

Potentially, but also it's always hard to tell who's in form, and the general level of the field, in the first comp of the year. Added to that, lots of climbers at the top like Janja and Natalia spent most of last season asking for harder boulders. So i'm sure they can hardly have any complaints when that happens!

Only one boulder didn't get topped in semis, that's actually a decent set IMO. Especially since it had varying attempts to get the zone - better than a boulder where the top 10 all flash it, giving no separation

I would be strongly in favour of scrapping the semis and having a 2 day final with half the competitors eliminated after the first day. There is just so much variability in the type of problems that can be set and effect of height etc. There is currently a lot of potential for perceived unfairness.

I'm not sure I follow. Would it be 20 people do final part 1, and then 10 people do final part 2? Sounds a lot like the current system! 

Yes, but scores from the first half are carried forward.

I think it is fair to say that currently the results in the final and strongly influenced by the routersetters.

[edshakey]

Ohh I see. Yes, there would definitely be some merit to that. I suppose it would be a slightly worse spectator sport, especially to those slightly less clued up on the rules, but that's not necessarily a reason to avoid it.

I think it is fair to say that currently the results in the final and strongly influenced by the routersetters.

I'm not massively convinced by this - are there some particular examples you're thinking of?

[wasbeen]

I guess for me the obvious comp was the Olympics where Coleman got 2 tops and no one else got more than 1. So effectively the gold medal was decided by one boulder and the inability to comprehensively split the rest of the field. If they had stuck in a crack climb or a long reach and Ondra would have won gold.

[thunderbeest]

A total of 3 tops in female finals isn't that impressive though.  With a max of 2 tops per person in the semi i would have thought they figured they were a but off with the grades.

[edshakey]

I guess for me the obvious comp was the Olympics where Coleman got 2 tops and no one else got more than 1. So effectively the gold medal was decided by one boulder and the inability to comprehensively split the rest of the field. If they had stuck in a crack climb or a long reach and Ondra would have won gold.

Fair enough, I agree the setting in the olympics, with that format, was poor. But that format was always going to struggle. Glad it's in the past now.

A total of 3 tops in female finals isn't that impressive though.  With a max of 2 tops per person in the semi i would have thought they figured they were a but off with the grades.

4 in total, Brooke got 3. And flashed the zone on the other one. So really, only half of one boulder was too hard.

It all comes back to what would generally be seen as "The Janja Issue": are they setting for the top competitor, or the 6th? There have been many finals now where Janja or Natalia has topped all the boulders with ease, and multiple other people have not even topped one. Seems like a pretty impossible task to me, especially if 2 of the super-crazy-strong women are in it and need splitting.
I fully agree that there are some routesetting issues with IFSC comps, especially women's comps, but I don't really have many ideas for how to set better when there is such a range in quality, even in just the final.