[Fiend]

It's a bloody shambles that's what it is. Doesn't look at all deliberate and it doesn't look like it helps that much as the swing would be into the hold not away from it. But basically what sirlockoff said.

[spidermonkey09]

That would absolutely invalidate a redpoint or an onsight outside.

Can't comment on whats fair or not in comps (I wouldn't have penalised Ondra for the accidental bolt stand either) but in no way would this invalidate an RP or onsight attempt outside for what its worth. Any entirely accidental benefit derived is more than offset by the hindrance and faff involved disentangling yourself. Crack on I say, shit route setting.

[abarro81]

While strict rules make sense logically, for me it would depend critically on the route... on something like the big-swing sequence on Sean's roof something like this would totally invalidate it; but also I've got tangled in the rope on spinny roof climbs before and just carried on. In this context I'd err towards saying "dab" and stopping them at that point - this would feel a little "unfair" on the climbers involved, but route setting issues sometimes are unfair...

[cheque]

This is competitive sport though isn’t it? Whether you’ve cheated or not is down only on the referees decision, not whether you actually cheated. The people involved have too much at stake to be nice and while controversies blow over, results are recorded for ever.

Disclaimer: I don’t follow climbing comps at all but I do follow other sports.

That would absolutely invalidate a redpoint or an onsight outside.

That heavily depends on the climber though doesn’t it? What people allow themselves to count as a proper ascent varies massively. In the case of onsight the term is almost meaningless because, as shown in every internet thread about the style, there are almost as many definitions of it as there are climbers.

[wasbeen]

Pretty cool, that expectations are so high that Toby's 4th place hasn't had a mention till now.

[SA Chris]

Amazing effort from him, especially considering who beat him.

[Bonjoy]

That would absolutely invalidate a redpoint or an onsight outside.

Can't comment on whats fair or not in comps (I wouldn't have penalised Ondra for the accidental bolt stand either) but in no way would this invalidate an RP or onsight attempt outside for what its worth. Any entirely accidental benefit derived is more than offset by the hindrance and faff involved disentangling yourself. Crack on I say, shit route setting.

To be clear, by 'that' I mean the curtailed swing shown on the linked vid. I didn't mean that any and all rope dabs, however minor would invalidate an outdoor ascent. Like Alex says, it's context specific, but if the context was an identical move to that shown in the vid, then it would absolutely invalidate the ascent IMO.

[jwi]

Amazing effort from him, especially considering who beat him.

A bunch of OAPs?

[SA Chris]

None of the 3 are any of those things.

[wasbeen]

Amazing effort from him, especially considering who beat him.

A bunch of OAPs?

Really!?

This forum is difficult to love sometimes

[Wellsy]

Only like maybe 3 of the best sport climbers ever, you know, basically has beens

[Bradders]

Devil's advocate; I can't see what the problem is. As evidenced by the fact that Jessie Pilz was literally pulled off the wall by the rope, it was a hindrance not a help. The rope is pulling them back and away from the wall, not up or in and looks to me to feel the equivalent of being badly short roped.

As to whether it was intentional from any of them; absolute bollocks. They're clearly just trying to do the move, there's not even a hint of an intentional leg move, or a glance at the rope positioning to ensure it was caught. Others who did the move without getting caught either got lucky (e.g. Mia Krampl) or had the rope in front of their leg. Mia made it look like a fairly easy move so I can't imagine Brooke Raboutou wouldn't have done it without the rope being caught; if anything again it looked more hindrance than help to me.

[danm]

I can also see why technically this would be much harder to judge than stepping on a bolt. A bolt does not move, so the climber should know where one is, and avoid using it accordingly. The rope position is changing as the climber moves, so avoiding touching it will be much more difficult, and if touching it is not within the climbers absolute control, then it feels as though ascertaining intent or not and deriving benefit or not will be really hard to determine and could be very subjective. Sport rule makers do not usually like subjectivity!

Edit: Toby must now be a genuine podium contender for Paris 2024 and we should all be getting very, very excited about that!

[Duma]

Amazing effort from him, especially considering who beat him.

A bunch of OAPs?

Really!?

This forum is difficult to love sometimes

It's (obviously) a joke, and basically the same one made by megos ondra and Schubert on their SM. Relax people.

[Bonjoy]

Devil's advocate; I can't see what the problem is. As evidenced by the fact that Jessie Pilz was literally pulled off the wall by the rope, it was a hindrance not a help. The rope is pulling them back and away from the wall, not up or in and looks to me to feel the equivalent of being badly short roped.

As to whether it was intentional from any of them; absolute bollocks. They're clearly just trying to do the move, there's not even a hint of an intentional leg move, or a glance at the rope positioning to ensure it was caught. Others who did the move without getting caught either got lucky (e.g. Mia Krampl) or had the rope in front of their leg. Mia made it look like a fairly easy move so I can't imagine Brooke Raboutou wouldn't have done it without the rope being caught; if anything again it looked more hindrance than help to me.

This isn't any more relevant than hand wring over whether a massive dab invalidates a cutloose problem. It just does. Agonising about whether it helps or was on purpose just muddies the water. Back around, end of.
As a parent of a comp youth climber, I can't stand vague rules which require complex judgement to apply. Have simple rules and apply them consistently, even if that penalises accidents. That's fair on everyone.

[Bradders]

Okay, what is your simple rule which would have applied here?

[remus]

As happened with the Ondra bolt incident having strictly enforced rules can mean better solutions emerge, as they did with the no-tex holds that are now used to cover the bolts. Maybe these incidents will mean setters get better at avoiding this kind of situation altogether by making sure draws are placed so that the rope is out of the way.

Not sure what the rules should be, but these particular incidents seems pretty clearly on the wrong side of the line to me.

[jwi]

Amazing effort from him, especially considering who beat him.

A bunch of OAPs?

Really!?

This forum is difficult to love sometimes

It's (obviously) a joke, and basically the same one made by megos ondra and Schubert on their SM. Relax people.

I forgot the smiley, my bad.

But it’s seriously interesting that the old guard still dominates. Ondra has a theory why that is so that no one likes…

Toby Roberts looked incredibly strong, just a few tiny mistakes from a podium or better.

[lukeyboy]

Ondra has a theory why that is so that no one likes…

Which is...?
 

[jwi]

The routes haven’t gotten harder over the last ten years and kids these days don’t train enough endurance.


At 10:32 mark

[SA Chris]

Okay, what is your simple rule which would have applied here?

Don't set routes where the rope can get in the way.

[Wellsy]

The routes haven’t gotten harder over the last ten years and kids these days don’t train enough endurance.


At 10:32 mark

Watching this vid reminds me of how much I love Ondra

[crimpinainteasy]

The routes haven’t gotten harder over the last ten years and kids these days don’t train enough endurance.


At 10:32 mark

I guess the issue may be that we're already at 99% of what's humanly possible to be onsighted. Seems like onsight and flash grades have barely moved in comparison to the shift in difficulty of redpoint grades over the last ten tears

[abarro81]

I guess the issue may be that we're already at 99% of what's humanly possible to be onsighted. Seems like onsight and flash grades have barely moved in comparison to the shift in difficulty of redpoint grades over the last ten tears

I agree that this has happened, but it's not obvious to me why onsight shouldn't move up as redpoint does. I just assumed it's a fashion thing (onsight and even flash not being that fashionable nowadays, even if they're the best styles)

[Bonjoy]

Okay, what is your simple rule which would have applied here?

Weighting the rope with feet on a cutloose means that is the end of your attempt. It requires judgement, but not complex judgement.