[Bradders]

My personal view on this is that any form of ambiguity is unhelpful in the long run. There's already enough when you factor in that you can climb on some rock types while they're wet, let alone some grit being okay but other bits aren't.

Just recently this confusion over which rock types are okay to dry wet holds on led to some very experienced, and plenty strong, Manchester based climbers climbing on and publicising their drying of wet holds. Their excuse was they'd not climbed on grit much and assumed it was the same as lime or mountain rock. If people are starting their climbing on wet grit I can't see how that's going to help foster good habits in the future.

[Will Hunt]

Also not sure how true it is that harder climbs have more fragile/breakable holds. If anything its backwards, the harder climbs are all ripple crimps, or really bad slopers whereas the easier climbs have huge flakes, jugs, buckets which are more prone to snapping when wet.

You could not be more wrong.

[Dingdong]

Also not sure how true it is that harder climbs have more fragile/breakable holds. If anything its backwards, the harder climbs are all ripple crimps, or really bad slopers whereas the easier climbs have huge flakes, jugs, buckets which are more prone to snapping when wet.

You could not be more wrong.

Care to backup your lame excuse for a reply with some evidence?

[yetix]

I agree with bradders about ambiguity. I also feel that saying banned will not have a very desired affect, as Wellsey stated its not some law and people may not understand, instead teaching people from all levels of the impact which can be had would go alot better than simply saying something is banned, help them understand and perhaps they can do the same for their friends. I myself when I was new to outdoor climbing have definitely made the mistakes bradders highlighted, I was ill informed and those who first took me out were too and I feel that had there been better forms of information available I would have likely learnt this sooner. Those which haven't made this mistake when they began climbing outside are very lucky that they were introduced and exposed to climbing on sandstones by those who had already learnt this, but not everyone has that luxury unfortunately.

As a whole the Climbing community comes across as quite elitist I think which I don't think helps issues like this, aggressive undertones lead to people not listening alot of the time imo, a more informative approach coming from a variety of stakeholders to me makes the most sense to me.

There are plenty of occasions of strong climbers saying how they dried wet grit in some capacity (just because the surface of holds no longer feel wet doesn't mean the rock itself is fine right?) to do a problem which definitely adds to this confusion.

[mrjonathanr]

Absolutely, Yetix.

Unless the local council introduces a bye law to the effect, climbing on grit in poor conditions can’t be banned.

Ensuring people understand why it’s better for them to avoid doing this is definitely the way to go. As you say, condescending to people won’t work. Having role models do the right thing is an important part of the message.

[Jono.r23]

Asking role models to do the right thing when its their livelihood is tricky i guess. Outdoor guiding is seasonal and nobody’s making a big stack of cash i wouldn't have thought (at least, those who aren’t running companies). Doesn’t make it right but taking a group out in crap connies vs not getting paid is what it comes down to.
Doesn’t seem to bother all the other traddie non-proffessionals you see up at stanage in the pissing rain & fog though.. can’t really put that down to inexperience as they clearly know their gear etc

[Dingdong]

Banning was probably a strong emotional response from me so yeah my bad. Probably more that it should become a standard addition to the ethics of grit climbing such as not bolting gritstone. It would be good to educate and not give out so many mixed signals.

[Baron]

Most of the damage I see on grit is worn gear placements, not climbing in the wet

[Wellsy]

People shouldn't climb wet grit, or wet rock generally, and there's lots of ways of getting that message across, and ideally guides would follow that too. I get why they might not in whatever circumstance though.

Ultimately the rock is somewhat transitory even within our lives. While we can preserve it, one day we may need to bring increasingly into our ethics an allowance for the consequence of damage to rock to grades, to whether we should limit our attempts even more etc. Look at Deliverance, or the polish on Science Friction (that FUCKING PIECE OF SHIT sorry sorry I'm done now). This ties into that more widely

Anyway I think that climbing walls should do more. Put posters up with outdoor bouldering ethics etc, that'd be good. It's the main avenue into outdoor climbing, so there's an opportunity to teach there.

P.S. it would help if some people who definitely should know better didn't occasionally flaunt the rules

P.P.S This all relates to Bouldering cos that's what I do, they can gridbolt Stanage in the rain while wearing crampons for all I care

[Ross Barker]

Maybe we should just sacrifice a couple of shit routes for the guides to climb when it's wet.

The guides still get to do their job in inclement weather, and nobody will complain about the shit routes being a bit shitter by accelerated polish.

[Will Hunt]

Also not sure how true it is that harder climbs have more fragile/breakable holds. If anything its backwards, the harder climbs are all ripple crimps, or really bad slopers whereas the easier climbs have huge flakes, jugs, buckets which are more prone to snapping when wet.

You could not be more wrong.

Care to backup your lame excuse for a reply with some evidence?

Right, ok then. As a general rule, the holds on boulder problems are smaller than those on easy trad routes.  On easy routes the weight of the climber is spread over a bigger area and thus the pressure applied to one unit area of rock is reduced. Lipped crimps break really easily. I've seen them crumble in perfectly dry conditions. The weight of the climber is being applied through mm2 of rock. It would take a monumental amount of traffic to erode the Jolly Pleasant Scramble at Crookrise, even if it's piss wet through. In addition to the reason I've just given, this is in part because on an easy grit route, not everybody who climbs it will use the same bits of rock.

That doesn't mean that anybody can climb any easy grit route in the wet. I wouldn't have any groups abseiling down Chalkstorm in any conditions, and top-roping an easy route covered in lipped crenellations in the wet would be wrong. However, an instructor taking two clients up President's Slab in the wet, after they've been briefed to towel any mud off their shoes before stepping on, isn't going to do any harm.

I think there's lots of well-meaning people posting but also some people who aren't very well-informed. Sorry to pick on you, Wellsy, but there's nothing wrong with climbing on wet volcanic mountain rock, for instance.

[Will Hunt]

To be honest it sounds like the people who most need simplistic rules are bouldering types who have never done any easy trad and haven't got a clue what they're talking about, to save them getting offended by mountaineering types minding their own business and causing no harm.

[Wellsy]

Yeah I say generally cos most are probably best avoided. There are exceptions of course, although tbh why anyone would want to go bouldering on wet rock is beyond me.

Also how dare you

[Will Hunt]

Yeah I say generally cos most are probably best avoided. There are exceptions of course, although tbh why anyone would want to go bouldering on wet rock is beyond me.

Also how dare you

I'm not sure this is true. Limestone and volcanics (Inc granite etc) are fine in the wet. It's grit and sandstone that you want to worry about.

I can think of a million things I'd rather do now but 15 years or so ago, psyched off our heads and learning the craft, we enjoyed slogging up to Grey Crag or swimming up Cup and Saucer.

[Wellsy]

Limestone bouldering isn't really "fine" in the wet, it's really slippery and your fingers will ping off holds all the time. Plus that horrible chalky paste-like stuff that well used holds become. I mean you could do it, ethically it'd be fine I guess, but it sounds incredibly shit

[spidermonkey09]

The problem here is seeing everything through a bouldering prism. Those who see climbing through a routes prism deal with wet holds all the time.

Edit; however since more and more people get into climbing through bouldering people are right that it may set a precedent.

[abarro81]

To be honest it sounds like the people who most need simplistic rules are bouldering types who have never done any easy trad and haven't got a clue what they're talking about, to save them getting offended by mountaineering types minding their own business and causing no harm.

 

If nothing else, the probability of people meaningfully changing the nature of a few already polished easy routes by TRing in the wet is, I believe, low. At least so long as the routes are chosen not to have fragile flakes (probably long gone on most easy Eastern Grit). The probability of people meaningfully changing the holds on boulders by scrubbing the living hell out of them with a brush whilst trying to dry the holds is not that low. Small changes make bigger differences on smaller/worse holds, obviously.

[Moo]

I think it’s good to set pretty hard and fast rules such as “Categorically don’t climb on wet grit or sandstone”. The reason being that most humans by their nature will bend rules a little to their convenience.

As an example of that, how many people here drive a bit quick sometimes, probably on the motorway where we believe it’s safer to do so. Why don’t we all go belting along like it’s the autobahn ? Because there’s a 70 mile an hour speed limit.

If we say absolutely stay off wet rock and push that message then less damage will occur, simple as that.

On the issue of groups and instructors climbing in the wet, I don’t see why they should get a free pass. The issue of a paying client is no excuse for damaging the rock. It should be made clear that climbing can’t happen in the wet and a suitable alternative arranged in case that does happen. Some instructors I know who take people out bouldering already have that policy and if it’s wet they just go and do a coaching session at the wall instead.

[sdm]

I'm not sure this is true. Limestone and volcanics (Inc granite etc) are fine in the wet. It's grit and sandstone that you want to worry about.

Not all limestone is fine in the wet. At a crag like Raven Tor or Parisellas, where the limestone is bullet hard, it's fine.

But at somewhere like Lees Bottom or Hollin Hill, the limestone is held together with sandy layers. These layers weaken just like sandstone when they're wet so it is not OK to climb these in the wet.

[Offwidth]

I'd say it's still not 'fine' for any rock. It's near impossible to keep footwear clean on wet lower grade routes and sand inevitably grinds and polishes. It's an education issue for me rather than talk of bans. However as most people avoid that type of fun these days the ethical dilemma doesn't seem large. Still, a lot of the polish we see on major UK trad classics came from the harsher damage of the nailed boots era, certainly for Stanage. Also on lower grades there are plenty of old chipped holds, especially in Yorkshire. Ground erosion at the base of crags is also an old problem.

The recent faster changes to rock I see are mainly on popular problems and hence the vastly more important need for education on that. It's especially bad on the most popular grit. On gritstone trad, wear on gear placements is more serious than newer polish, especially so for weighted cams grinding out breaks or falls snapping flakes (ground out breaks have been pretty horrific at Birchen for decades now but are becoming increasingly obvious on Stanage classic VS lines).

[remus]

Limestone bouldering isn't really "fine" in the wet, it's really slippery and your fingers will ping off holds all the time. Plus that horrible chalky paste-like stuff that well used holds become. I mean you could do it, ethically it'd be fine I guess, but it sounds incredibly shit

It's funny reading stuff like this having spent the weekend climbing on Portland. You could go months getting nothing done if you did that here.

[andy moles]

When I lived in Sheffield and instructed in the Peak, I occasionally used to take people climbing on wet grit.

I agree, it does not set a good example.

But on some days, you really have f**k all other options. Rock damage aside, it's not like I would choose to hang out at crags in the rain if there was something else I could do that delivered a worthwhile day for people's money. They'd often have travelled a fair distance and have booked accommodation etc too. Most of these days were probably not direct bookings, so it's not even like I could get in touch with them in advance and arrange a postponement or something, I'd often be working for another company.

Am I going to refuse to work? And not get paid? And not get any work for x company in future, having binned them off at the last minute? Some hill to die on. If we had to cancel every time it rained in the UK, instructing wouldn't exist because there wouldn't be any instructors.

How much additional damage is caused on the kind of routes we did in the wet - Mods at Burbage, the easier stuff in the quarries - is debatable. Regardless, it never sat well with me the image it portrayed, and I would try to explain the problems with climbing sandstones in the wet and the ways we were trying to mitigate those problems as best we could.

But would I do the same now if circumstances dictated? Yes.

[webbo]

So would you be happy for the blokes building your new house to work in the rain or frost and accept how it might effect the building. Some profession’s are unfortunately are effected by the weather, if you are not prepared to accept the conditions it imposes. Do something different.

[haydn jones]

I guess the difference would be the builder will continue to get work if they say they can't work where as if a instructor turns the work down last second they don't get hired anymore.

[danm]

Forecast looks shite tomorrow, who fancies heading out and climbing some VD chimneys in big boots?