[Dingdong]

Is it ok to climb on wet grit? Even easy routes? I only ask because of the confused messages I’m getting from multiple people. For example I’ve seen numerous companies taking people out for RCI assessments on grit when it’s either raining or it’s rained and it’s drenched. Do they have some sort of exemption that allows them to do those in whatever conditions?

[Bradders]

No

[Will Hunt]

It depends on the rock, how wet it is, and the use.

If the rock is very hard it could be really wet and light traffic up an easy route still wouldn't do any damage.

[Kingy]

Climbing wet v diff cracks in the rain wouldn't be a problem IMO. I started climbing toproping with a group in just such a scenario. Obvs this is very different to bouldering.

[Dingdong]

It depends on the rock, how wet it is, and the use.

If the rock is very hard it could be really wet and light traffic up an easy route still wouldn't do any damage.

Im talking about grit around stanage and burbage where they usually do those RCI assessments.

I only ask this because even though kingy mentions easy V Diff routes etc surely that gives mixed messages to punters who might see people out climbing on drenched rock which might then make them believe it’s ok in any scenario. Aren’t there also cases where these easy climbs have big flakes and jugs which might snap if they’re wet?

Personally for me I would ban all climbing on wet grit and sandstone regardless of difficulty but this post was more to bring attention to the fact that I’m often going for walks or driving past burbage north and seeing these companies taking people out on wet grit.

[Will Hunt]

I'd rather people were able to make sensible decisions based on the situation, rather than be forced to dogmatically adhere to simplistic commandments for fear of an enthusiastic public shaming at the hands of the punitively pious high priests of rock climbing.

[petejh]

I think what's required is a wetGrader.

[Dingdong]

Wouldn’t it just be simpler to say don’t climb on wet gritstone which is fragile and prone to wear and breaking?

Even climbing a v diff crack when it’s drenched will polish it for others.

Lots of mixed messages about the ethics surrounding wet grit.

[Will Hunt]

It would be simpler for you, yes, because you've got no desire to climb easy routes on damp days. But that would preclude other people from doing things that they want to do which cause no harm.

[Jono.r23]

Wierd innit. Ive often gone for a walk along the edges when its too wet to climb & always resist the urge to question the thinking of all the trad types clinking away on sodden grit.  From what i gather re companys/instructors is that a booking is a booking and thats it. They know they shouldnt but do it anyway. Would be great if they led by example eh. Lets be honest, easy routes are no less prone to wear than boulder problems..they just still go with polish and lost holds

[Dingdong]

It would be simpler for you, yes, because you've got no desire to climb easy routes on damp days. But that would preclude other people from doing things that they want to do which cause no harm.

Sorry but im not talking about 'damp days' - im talking about fully wet, soaked, drenched grit.

[Wellsy]

It depends on the rock, how wet it is, and the use.

If the rock is very hard it could be really wet and light traffic up an easy route still wouldn't do any damage.

Im talking about grit around stanage and burbage where they usually do those RCI assessments.

I only ask this because even though kingy mentions easy V Diff routes etc surely that gives mixed messages to punters who might see people out climbing on drenched rock which might then make them believe it’s ok in any scenario. Aren’t there also cases where these easy climbs have big flakes and jugs which might snap if they’re wet?

Personally for me I would ban all climbing on wet grit and sandstone regardless of difficulty but this post was more to bring attention to the fact that I’m often going for walks or driving past burbage north and seeing these companies taking people out on wet grit.

Ban maybe not the right word mind you, not like there's any official regulations or whatever. Ultimately we don't climb on wet rock due to a general consensus that we shouldn't for various (good) reasons, but it's really just an in-community thing. And even within that not always followed.

[Jono.r23]

Should ask this question on ukc 

[Dingdong]

It depends on the rock, how wet it is, and the use.

If the rock is very hard it could be really wet and light traffic up an easy route still wouldn't do any damage.

Im talking about grit around stanage and burbage where they usually do those RCI assessments.

I only ask this because even though kingy mentions easy V Diff routes etc surely that gives mixed messages to punters who might see people out climbing on drenched rock which might then make them believe it’s ok in any scenario. Aren’t there also cases where these easy climbs have big flakes and jugs which might snap if they’re wet?

Personally for me I would ban all climbing on wet grit and sandstone regardless of difficulty but this post was more to bring attention to the fact that I’m often going for walks or driving past burbage north and seeing these companies taking people out on wet grit.

Ban maybe not the right word mind you, not like there's any official regulations or whatever. Ultimately we don't climb on wet rock due to a general consensus that we shouldn't for various (good) reasons, but it's really just an in-community thing.

Why not? We can ban things like drilling bolts, access to certain crags etc - how different is wearing down and polishing rock, potentially breaking off flakes and jugs to drilling anchor bolts at the top of routes?

[Wellsy]

Should ask this question on ukc 

It'd just turn into an argument about bolting and the thin end of the wedge and is anything other than doing HVS' all day really climbing when look when I started climbing in 1977 or 1877 or AD 77 or whatever it wasn't called trad it was just climbing none of these gyms etc etc etc

[Wellsy]

It depends on the rock, how wet it is, and the use.

If the rock is very hard it could be really wet and light traffic up an easy route still wouldn't do any damage.

Im talking about grit around stanage and burbage where they usually do those RCI assessments.

I only ask this because even though kingy mentions easy V Diff routes etc surely that gives mixed messages to punters who might see people out climbing on drenched rock which might then make them believe it’s ok in any scenario. Aren’t there also cases where these easy climbs have big flakes and jugs which might snap if they’re wet?

Personally for me I would ban all climbing on wet grit and sandstone regardless of difficulty but this post was more to bring attention to the fact that I’m often going for walks or driving past burbage north and seeing these companies taking people out on wet grit.

Ban maybe not the right word mind you, not like there's any official regulations or whatever. Ultimately we don't climb on wet rock due to a general consensus that we shouldn't for various (good) reasons, but it's really just an in-community thing.

Why not? We can ban things like drilling bolts, access to certain crags etc - how different is wearing down and polishing rock, potentially breaking off flakes and jugs to drilling anchor bolts at the top of routes?

Access is legally regulated. Bolting is debatable depending on where. There's no law saying you can't climb on wet rock on publicly accessible land, nor imo should there be.

[Kingy]

I can see how small holds would break more readily in the wet. Would footholds polish more in the wet than the dry? Im not sure they would... Malham footholds have polished up remarkably well in the dry!

[Dingdong]

It depends on the rock, how wet it is, and the use.

If the rock is very hard it could be really wet and light traffic up an easy route still wouldn't do any damage.

Im talking about grit around stanage and burbage where they usually do those RCI assessments.

I only ask this because even though kingy mentions easy V Diff routes etc surely that gives mixed messages to punters who might see people out climbing on drenched rock which might then make them believe it’s ok in any scenario. Aren’t there also cases where these easy climbs have big flakes and jugs which might snap if they’re wet?

Personally for me I would ban all climbing on wet grit and sandstone regardless of difficulty but this post was more to bring attention to the fact that I’m often going for walks or driving past burbage north and seeing these companies taking people out on wet grit.

Ban maybe not the right word mind you, not like there's any official regulations or whatever. Ultimately we don't climb on wet rock due to a general consensus that we shouldn't for various (good) reasons, but it's really just an in-community thing.

Why not? We can ban things like drilling bolts, access to certain crags etc - how different is wearing down and polishing rock, potentially breaking off flakes and jugs to drilling anchor bolts at the top of routes?

Access is legally regulated. Bolting is debatable depending on where. There's no law saying you can't climb on wet rock on publicly accessible land, nor imo should there be.

Pretty sure bolting on grit in the peak is not debatable 

[Jono.r23]

Getting down to the nitty gritty probably.. as more crud is going to stick to wet feet before pulling on. I doubt anyone is being instructed to wipe their feet before standing on dripping wet rock

[Droyd]

Climbing wet v diff cracks in the rain wouldn't be a problem IMO. I started climbing toproping with a group in just such a scenario. Obvs this is very different to bouldering.

Not sure I agree with this - is there not an element of elitism in saying that it's fine to trash routes provided they're low-grade ones? Obviously a VDiff crack isn't reliant on fragile smears and pebbles in the same way as a harder route or the majority of boulder problems and so it’s a fundamentally practical argument, but at the same time it leads to damage that makes things harder and less enjoyable to climb. I think it's pretty safe to say that footwear being wet means that more sand and grit is on them and that that leads to more polish and damage, and there are so many routes or buttresses at classic crags (the Gingerbread slab at Lawrencefield, the -ology buttress at Stanage Pop, the Ant slab at Yarncliffe) that are totally fucked to the point that they're basically of no value to the community beyond being crèches for new climbers who don't know any better as a result of this. And while the damage that has been done to them is probably a function of sheer volume, the process has clearly been accelerated by people climbing in the wet.  Anyway, this is all getting a bit UKC.

https://www.instagram.com/p/CkWBuBZDrQL/ Things like this are pretty vile as far as I’m concerned and I can only imagine that anyone promoting their business in this way has no clue about ethics. Then again I have a friend who is an instructor who has talked about ending up at Eastern Edges crags with clients on marginal or even outright crap days and setting up topropes on routes that aren't really dry enough to be climbable, and that they wouldn't dream of getting on if they were out climbing themselves. They do it because they have paying clients who have booked for a specific day and often driven a good distance specifically in order to climb on rock, so if they don’t just crack on and set up the topropes they have to either cancel and not get paid or go to the wall instead, at which point the client isn’t getting what they wanted. My friend generally finds what they consider to be something of a middle ground by explaining that what they’re doing isn’t really okay in the context of climbing ethics and is basically a one-off, in the hope that if the client does continue with climbing they’ll know not to do it again.

[Kingy]

I wouldn't say elitism. Entry level climbs are accessible to all and usually have many different options in terms of larger hands and footholds which are probably less prone to damage in the wet than the smaller holds of more difficult climbs. Per se, climbing in the wet is not desirable for the reasons stated in the this thread, however there are commercial interests at play in terms of guiding etc. I have no perspective on companies taking their clients out in the wet, my day out with a group was in the 90s, I doubt anybody thought about it much back then. 

[Dingdong]

I wouldn't say elitism. Entry level climbs are accessible to all and usually have many different options in terms of larger hands and footholds which are probably less prone to damage in the wet than the smaller holds of more difficult climbs. Per se, climbing in the wet is not desirable for the reasons stated in the this thread, however there are commercial interests at play in terms of guiding etc. I have no perspective on companies taking their clients out in the wet, my day out with a group was in the 90s, I doubt anybody thought about it much back then.

Exactly, climbing wasn’t anywhere near as popular back then. Now there’s droves of new people who want to get on rock and won’t understand or know the ethics behind climbing on wet rock (specifically gritstone) and as mentioned a lot of these activity companies are taking people out when the rock is drenched.

Also not sure how true it is that harder climbs have more fragile/breakable holds. If anything its backwards, the harder climbs are all ripple crimps, or really bad slopers whereas the easier climbs have huge flakes, jugs, buckets which are more prone to snapping when wet.

My original point was actually more aimed towards accreditation companies taking people out who should know better though and I see it often. I’ve now spoken to 2 separate people who have gone and done their RCI assessments on fully wet rock and they just shrugged it off

[Wellsy]

It depends on the rock, how wet it is, and the use.

If the rock is very hard it could be really wet and light traffic up an easy route still wouldn't do any damage.

Im talking about grit around stanage and burbage where they usually do those RCI assessments.

I only ask this because even though kingy mentions easy V Diff routes etc surely that gives mixed messages to punters who might see people out climbing on drenched rock which might then make them believe it’s ok in any scenario. Aren’t there also cases where these easy climbs have big flakes and jugs which might snap if they’re wet?

Personally for me I would ban all climbing on wet grit and sandstone regardless of difficulty but this post was more to bring attention to the fact that I’m often going for walks or driving past burbage north and seeing these companies taking people out on wet grit.

Ban maybe not the right word mind you, not like there's any official regulations or whatever. Ultimately we don't climb on wet rock due to a general consensus that we shouldn't for various (good) reasons, but it's really just an in-community thing.

Why not? We can ban things like drilling bolts, access to certain crags etc - how different is wearing down and polishing rock, potentially breaking off flakes and jugs to drilling anchor bolts at the top of routes?

Access is legally regulated. Bolting is debatable depending on where. There's no law saying you can't climb on wet rock on publicly accessible land, nor imo should there be.

Pretty sure bolting on grit in the peak is not debatable 

Debatable in terms of legality not in-community ethics, and plenty of things in the Peak are bolted. Not grit mind you, but point me to the written official regulation that prohibits bolting grit.

[Droyd]

If you agree that polish and damage are bad things but think that it's possible to draw a line below which they're acceptable because at that grade and below no one could possibly find the climbing physically difficult, then you're being elitist. I’ve climbed with people who are just as much ‘climbers’ as anyone on here (they go to the wall as often as they can, they jump at the chance to climb outside, they consume climbing media voraciously) who would struggle to get up VDiffs due to physical limitations that they were born with or that have come about during their lives, and the idea that their enjoyment and aspirations are worth less than anyone else’s is unacceptable in my view.

I appreciate that this may come across as me going off on some mental tangent, banging a wildly boring inclusivity drum as per, but I think it’s an important point to make as I’m guessing it simply doesn’t occur to most people on here. Also not having a go at anyone in particular, especially Kingy, and hope it doesn't come across as confrontational; I feel quite strongly about this because I have a personal connection to it, and prior to getting to know some of the people I'm thinking of in writing this post I'd never thought about climbing beyond me and my homogeneous group of mates, and wonder if that's the case with others.

[Offwidth]

Well said. I've climbed with someone who struggled to TR a mod, due to some physical disabilities and anxiety. He can't stop obsessing about climbing.

I still think climbing sodden grit VDs  (or even dry VDs if footwear is covered in damp sand) is ethically dodgy but when we look at shades of grey it's popular grit bouldering where by far the most change in damage is noticable in my 3+ decades of climbing.