UKBouldering.com

Recovery, Sleep and getting older (Read 4191 times)

DavidM

Offline
  • *
  • regular
  • Posts: 58
  • Karma: +1/-0
Recovery, Sleep and getting older
January 31, 2023, 12:30:42 pm
Hi all,

Hoping to see if anyone can help with some wisdom and experience. I've noticed in recent years recovery isn't as good despite doing the usual things and living clean. I'm now 38 with two kids which is to be expected I guess but i'm always looking to improve sleep and recovery. I train in the evening usually between 5pm-7.30pm exclusively bouldering and board climb, eat after and regularly get my 8 hours sleep kids permitting. The thought of training at 4am won't work for me as I have the kids before work. 

Outside of the normal recommended advice stretching, massage, adequate nutrition / refuelling, extra sleep, shorter sessions, avoiding alcohol and excess caffeine etc does anyone have any specific tips that have helped them or moved the needle?

Things that have moved the needle for me

-Not training too close to bed time i.e finishing session by latest 7.30pm and in bed by 10.30pm.
-Cold showers in morning
-Hot showers after evening climbing session
-Supplementing with glycine to lower body temperature after training in the evening
-Supplementing with Magnesium in the evening
-Drinking a lot more water after session so your hydrated throughout the night (Piss a lot during the night though)

I know there is a lot of info online but good to hear if anything worked for people that might help me and others aiming to get the most out of the training they are putting in.

thanks in Advance



Nutty

Offline
  • ***
  • obsessive maniac
  • Posts: 356
  • Karma: +17/-0
#1 Re: Recovery, Sleep and getting older
January 31, 2023, 03:23:35 pm
How many times a week are you currently training? Do you do the same volume of training each week, or do you have deload weeks or a schedule of easier and harder weeks?

I'm finding I need to spend more time on 'supplementary' exercises as I get older - stretching/mobility/strength etc. Partly this is rehabbing or trying to prevent re-occurrence of injuries, some of it is to address weaknesses, some is just as a 'recovery' session - something relatively easy that keeps me moving. Exclusively bouldering and board climbing breaks me.

DavidM

Offline
  • *
  • regular
  • Posts: 58
  • Karma: +1/-0
#2 Re: Recovery, Sleep and getting older
January 31, 2023, 03:54:38 pm
Family and work often induce deload or rest weeks but I don't formally structure them no.

My recent sessions have been as below as I had my second child recently and not had too much time to get to the gym or go outdoors

I do 3 sessions a week usually no longer than 2hr 15mins. I spend the first 40 mins finger training no hangs from ground deadlift style and in between hangs I do weighted pull ups / chin ups and some mobility stuff in between. I've found doing regular finger boarding has helped keep my fingers healthy and pulling from floor has helped shoulder issues that seem to occur with overhead hanging. 

Rest for a bit and then 1hr of board climbing on home wall for instance (this can be limit bouldering 5-8 moves or easier session of volume of easier problems that are still fairly hard) 3-5mins rest between attempts.

After that 30 min circuit of antagonists strength stuff to keep healthy and balanced. 3 sets of each. Weighted dips on rings, One arm shoulder scapula pulls downs, Reverse wrist curls, Single arm rows with rings, Y's or T's with rings.





mrjonathanr

Online
  • *****
  • forum hero
  • Posts: 5083
  • Karma: +221/-6
  • Getting fatter, not fitter.
#3 Re: Recovery, Sleep and getting older
January 31, 2023, 06:27:44 pm
Sounds reasonably balanced. Are you taking into account that the load on you, on your nervous system, includes the training plus all the other stressors- work, family, sufficient sleep or not etc.
Recovery from any climbing load sits in an overall context.

Probes

Offline
  • *****
  • forum hero
  • Wood Abuser
  • Posts: 1044
  • Karma: +42/-2
    • Crusher Holds
#4 Re: Recovery, Sleep and getting older
January 31, 2023, 08:37:51 pm
I'm 46 with 2 young kids. Sounds good what you're doing, more than I do with supplements etc. I'll train 3/4 times a week, usually on the board. If training power/strength, keep the volume as low as possible, and no more than 1 1/2hr session. Aim massively at quality not quantity. Try to not wake up sore from anything. The ideal regime for me...
Up at 8, kids sort etc.
Work at 9, usually on feet all day and physical work.
I eat tea at 5 with kids.
Power nap 30-45mins on settee.
Kids in bed.
On the board for 8.30-9. Cut off time is 9.30
Do session.
Eat again & drink loads (preferably not beer)
Bed for 12-1.00.
7-8 hours good sleep.
Rinse and repeat.
Days off I stretch for 45 mins in eve, certainly helps recovery, but essential for old back injuries.

The power nap tends to work really well, as I'm pretty fresh on the board. Without I'm groggy and clunky and at risk of injury.
This has been my ritual for over 2 years now and I'm as strong if not stronger than my early 20's. Certainly takes a day extra to recover but I expect that now. Pretty easy to gauge when I've over done it, as I wake up feeling like I've just finished the session the night before.
Endurance, especially on the board, is another ball game entirely. I find switching to training 2 or 3 days on then 4 off works loads better, to get decent recovery. Otherwise I just work myself into the ground and grind to a halt. For years I did day on day off, this worked fine, not now.

Also can't express the 'importance of being idle' enough. For me kids, physical job, training, head still at 30, body a bit further along, got to remember to stop when you can. Save it for the board.

petejh

Offline
  • *****
  • forum hero
  • Posts: 5413
  • Karma: +575/-31
#5 Re: Recovery, Sleep and getting older
January 31, 2023, 09:14:32 pm
Here's a quick one - take a bog standard 20mg zinc supplement if you aren't already. For protecting testosterone depletion as you age. Drop in T linked to various ailments from mid-late 30s onward, including poor recovery, poor sleep and general fatigue/lack of response to training.

DavidM

Offline
  • *
  • regular
  • Posts: 58
  • Karma: +1/-0
#6 Re: Recovery, Sleep and getting older
February 01, 2023, 09:55:51 am
Thats interesting post Probes and similar to mine apart from waking / sleep timing. I regularly stretch for 45 mins as well that helps. Roll out the back and glutes daily etc which really helps lower back.

-Are you just bouldering or route climbing as well?
-The power nap do you fall asleep or just resting before the board session?
-The board endurance training schedule you mention- 2/3 days on and then 4 off. Is this endurance for bouldering or for route climbing. If bouldering what endurance exercises do you prefer or found successful? Do you have 4 days complete rest in this cycle? 

- What does a boulders de-load week look like in practice.? Is it same intensity but halving the amounts of sessions? Or do you dial back both.?

thanks petejh I thought I would be covered with a decent clean diet including enough meat and shellfish to cover the zinc requirements. Will consider and try that.


jwi

Offline
  • *****
  • forum hero
  • Posts: 3749
  • Karma: +297/-1
  • Distorting facts posted on instagram
    • On Steep Ground
#7 Re: Recovery, Sleep and getting older
February 01, 2023, 10:39:40 am
I don't think that a well maintained body of a non-sedentary 50 year-old is much different than one of a 30 year-old. But don't get injured. Ever.

However, I would not take any supplements* without a blood test showing particular deficiencies. Varied healthy non-insane eating is much better imnsho


*(Other than B12 if vegetarian)

DavidM

Offline
  • *
  • regular
  • Posts: 58
  • Karma: +1/-0
#8 Re: Recovery, Sleep and getting older
February 01, 2023, 11:32:58 am
Totally agree jwi about a sensible diet and I feel I have all the trace elements/ macros are covered nicely and eat really well. I have found that the glycine helps lower my body temperature after hard sessions in the evening. My sleep is compromised from hard sessions with warm body for few hours after and I was waking frequently with irritability. No problem getting to sleep or back to sleep. Additionally loads of hydration, natural fibre bedding that allows heat to escape and the glycine before bed and occasionally the magnesium helps I've found. 

Easily said than done "not getting injured" when your pushing yourself and really enjoy training.

Any tips on that front?

Liamhutch89

Offline
  • ****
  • junky
  • Posts: 884
  • Karma: +58/-1
#9 Re: Recovery, Sleep and getting older
February 01, 2023, 11:43:32 am
Sounds like you're doing most things right. Are you eating enough? A calorie deficit will trash your recovery more than any supplement can undo. I've found that very gradually increasing my calorie intake over a long time seems to have increased my metabolic rate and energy levels. I now maintain my weight on around 3,000kCals per day (and I work from home on a PC).


However, I would not take any supplements* without a blood test showing particular deficiencies. Varied healthy non-insane eating is much better imnsho

*(Other than B12 if vegetarian)

Creatine monohydrate? Very few people can max that out with varied eating and it's one of the few supplements with tons of evidence supporting its efficacy.

Here's a quick one - take a bog standard 20mg zinc supplement if you aren't already. For protecting testosterone depletion as you age. Drop in T linked to various ailments from mid-late 30s onward, including poor recovery, poor sleep and general fatigue/lack of response to training.

If / when I have issues relating to low testosterone I'll probably begin injecting it!

jwi

Offline
  • *****
  • forum hero
  • Posts: 3749
  • Karma: +297/-1
  • Distorting facts posted on instagram
    • On Steep Ground
#10 Re: Recovery, Sleep and getting older
February 01, 2023, 12:03:40 pm
Easily said than done "not getting injured" when your pushing yourself and really enjoy training.

Any tips on that front?
I have a few hard rules: any move with possible bad falls is out during training. So no heel hooking on steep terrain except on the first two moves, no sideways jumps above the first or possibly second move, no hard moves towards the top of the wall in a modern indoor bouldering gym. For sport climbing I always pre-clip the second draw and the third if practicable as I have no intention of ever hitting the ground.

(Addendum: I more-or-less stopped outdoor bouldering as I don't like ground falls. This is not a big sacrifice for me as the local bouldering is not great compared to the cragging. I imagined that if I did more outdoor bouldering I would not hesitate to toprope boulders if necessary.)

During training I never do a dynamic move where the feet cut loose if I am to weak to completely control the target hold.

For acute injuries I immediately stop the session if I get sharp pain in the fingers, elbows or shoulders. No exceptions, no excuses. It sucks when I pay a 15 euro entry fee and have to cut the visit short directly after the warm-up, but injuries suck more.

I have almost never gotten overuse injuries in twenty-five years of climbing, possibly because I am lazy, so I would not know how to manage them.


Creatine monohydrate? Very few people can max that out with varied eating and it's one of the few supplements with tons of evidence supporting its efficacy.

I know lots of climbers who have tried to supplement creatine, but I have yet to meet someone who concluded that it was worth it. I might change my mind if there was a double blind study that concluded that supplementing it improved performance in competition climbing (difficulty) or outdoor sport climbing.

DavidM

Offline
  • *
  • regular
  • Posts: 58
  • Karma: +1/-0
#11 Re: Recovery, Sleep and getting older
February 01, 2023, 02:35:06 pm
Are you eating enough?

Well I enjoy food, cooking and eat well so don't hold back in that regard. I exclusively cook from scratch with adequate protein and veggies. I'm 5ft 11 and weight around 77kg fairly lean.

It's not especially the recovery for the next session but the impact of a hard session on my nervous system and the impact on sleep quality that hampers the recovery. 

seankenny

Online
  • ****
  • junky
  • Posts: 889
  • Karma: +104/-8
#12 Re: Recovery, Sleep and getting older
February 01, 2023, 03:44:30 pm
It's not especially the recovery for the next session but the impact of a hard session on my nervous system and the impact on sleep quality that hampers the recovery.

Have you tried non-sleep deep rest type exercises? They are really good for calming down an over-wrought nervous system. Also box breathing or ďcoherent breathingĒ exercises could help.

tomtom

Offline
  • *****
  • forum hero
  • Posts: 20251
  • Karma: +639/-11
#13 Re: Recovery, Sleep and getting older
February 01, 2023, 04:09:25 pm
During lockdown I was training 4-5 days a week (I was 51 then) and basically 'got used' to aching at night and in the morning. After a few months it didn't seem to bother me so much. That sounds a bit weird - but is pretty much how it was.

I've knocked down the intensity now (2-3 times a week) and have no real problems. Like you - anything too late (past 9pm) makes sleep harder.

I did find I'd alternate what I pushed training wise. So one session would be (for example) one arm hangs, assisted one arm pullups, weighted two arm pull ups. Next one might be a very fingery session on the board - perhaps some assisted one arm hangs on crimps. Next one would be more regular climbing focusing on big dynamic moves on fairly good holds (etc..).

Final point - climbing is f*cking brutal on the body. I'm now doing other non strength based exercise 2-3 times a week and the recovery from that (despite it working my CV quite alot) is piss easy compared to climbing!!

n=1 etc..

mrjonathanr

Online
  • *****
  • forum hero
  • Posts: 5083
  • Karma: +221/-6
  • Getting fatter, not fitter.
#14 Re: Recovery, Sleep and getting older
February 01, 2023, 06:04:40 pm
Supplementing climbing with antagonist type exercises for overall health is wise, but a key way to avoid overuse injuries is to keep climbing regularly at consistent level.

If you want to dive into it, start here:tim gabett on managing training loads (pun intended)

webbo

Offline
  • *****
  • forum hero
  • Posts: 4866
  • Karma: +134/-12
#15 Re: Recovery, Sleep and getting older
February 01, 2023, 06:57:51 pm
I can manage to boulder on my board 3 or 4 times a week either limit bouldering or volume. I also cycle which depending on the time of year can 6 hour plus rides with a couple of short interval sessions.
But the big but is I donít work being retired for the last 4 years. The rest of my days is a bit of cleaning, cooking and walking my daughters dogs  at the moment.
Yes  I feel tired, beat up and weary at times but it doesnít seem to stop me. I also drink red wine to excess.

mrjonathanr

Online
  • *****
  • forum hero
  • Posts: 5083
  • Karma: +221/-6
  • Getting fatter, not fitter.
#16 Re: Recovery, Sleep and getting older
February 01, 2023, 07:41:09 pm
so the best thing to do for recovery is stop working? :-\   it has a certain appeal...

ali k

Offline
  • ****
  • junky
  • Posts: 873
  • Karma: +37/-1
#17 Re: Recovery, Sleep and getting older
February 01, 2023, 08:02:15 pm
so the best thing to do for recovery is stop working? :-\ 

Wasnít this Maccy Dís advice in that 9/10 book? Sacrifice everything, leave your wife, quit work, sleep at the climbing wall, eat lard etc.

webbo

Offline
  • *****
  • forum hero
  • Posts: 4866
  • Karma: +134/-12
#18 Re: Recovery, Sleep and getting older
February 01, 2023, 08:18:01 pm
No just drink more red wine.

Then the wife will leave with the kids and you probably lose your job. But it wonít be your fault that you ended up as a climbing bum.

kac

Offline
  • **
  • addict
  • Posts: 135
  • Karma: +4/-0
#19 Re: Recovery, Sleep and getting older
February 01, 2023, 08:38:58 pm
I'm 47 with 2 young kids and most of my climbing consists of board climbing. I've tried most things over the years - even bought an acrappi top for anyone who remembers that scam! Come to the conclusion that sleep is by far the most important thing and don't bother with any supplements anymore. For me changing to training at lunchtime has made the biggest change as any evening training seems to totally ruin my sleep. I'm lucky in that I have Flexi time, work from home and have a board. If it is at all possible I would give it a try.

chrisbrooke

Offline
  • *
  • regular
  • Posts: 46
  • Karma: +1/-0
    • My youtube shuffling
#20 Re: Recovery, Sleep and getting older
February 01, 2023, 09:22:05 pm
I'm enjoying this thread. I'm 44 with two young kids (5, 8 ) and more or less do all the things advised against here, and as a result don't climb that hard, and don't recover that well...   By the time I've done my day's work, got the kids to bed, had dinner, caught up on any work I missed due to taking the kids to after-school clubs etc, I'm often not training until after 10, sometimes 11pm.

That said, I generally get out climbing in the middle of the day (and subsequently work until late at night to catch up the hours), so I can't complain about that.
My key takeaway from this is to prioritise sleep, which is something I've always struggled to do. There's so much info out there that it's the easiest 'win', a super-power, etc, but I just find it so hard to get to bed early.

Or, that I should retire, which definitely appeals.

webbo

Offline
  • *****
  • forum hero
  • Posts: 4866
  • Karma: +134/-12
#21 Re: Recovery, Sleep and getting older
February 01, 2023, 10:00:04 pm
Is this the time to mention once you get in to your late 50ís no matter how long youíve slept for. It feels like that you havenít acutely been to sleep at all.
Just prey your prostrate holds out. :lol:

petejh

Offline
  • *****
  • forum hero
  • Posts: 5413
  • Karma: +575/-31
#22 Re: Recovery, Sleep and getting older
February 01, 2023, 10:30:42 pm
I still say, sleep quality is affected negatively by (among other things inc stress obvs) decreasing testosterone in men as we age. Lots of evidence out there that managing T is fundamental to good health inc. good sleep. Just saying 'get more/better quality sleep' is a bit like saying 'get stronger'. How? Your body won't just give you more/better quality sleep - there actually is some biochemistry involved as well. Good intentions and sensible bedtimes will help of course. If you're looking at sleep/recovery in context of ageing then a lot of the stuff you're up against is linked to declining (or increasing) levels of hormones etc. Slowing this decline are lifestyle factors (working out especially in particular patterns and times related to fasting, not overloading, lowering stress) and dietary intake. Dietary is easily (and cheaply, compared to steak and fish etc) fortified with a few common and safe vits and minerals taken at RDA. Zinc and b-vits being the obvious, lacking in many western diets.

Admittedly I'm a numbers person and like it when something can be shown to be low or high and something done to increase or reduce, helping contribute to conditions that lead to a desired outcome.


Mindfullness, yoga etc, All end up working by acting on the levels of various chemicals in the brain/body.

« Last Edit: February 01, 2023, 10:36:34 pm by petejh »

Probes

Offline
  • *****
  • forum hero
  • Wood Abuser
  • Posts: 1044
  • Karma: +42/-2
    • Crusher Holds
#23 Re: Recovery, Sleep and getting older
February 02, 2023, 12:32:21 am
Thats interesting post Probes and similar to mine apart from waking / sleep timing. I regularly stretch for 45 mins as well that helps. Roll out the back and glutes daily etc which really helps lower back.

-Are you just bouldering or route climbing as well?
-The power nap do you fall asleep or just resting before the board session?
-The board endurance training schedule you mention- 2/3 days on and then 4 off. Is this endurance for bouldering or for route climbing. If bouldering what endurance exercises do you prefer or found successful? Do you have 4 days complete rest in this cycle? 

- What does a boulders de-load week look like in practice.? Is it same intensity but halving the amounts of sessions? Or do you dial back both.?

thanks petejh I thought I would be covered with a decent clean diet including enough meat and shellfish to cover the zinc requirements. Will consider and try that.

-Are you just bouldering or route climbing as well?
Atm I'm just bouldering, but always with routes in the back of my mind. Life/time has just dictated that. I also have an ongoing saga of a Longridge traverse project, that I put effort into every year, so I try to keep a level where if and when I'm on it, I can get back up to speed endurance wise in a couple of months.
-The power nap do you fall asleep or just resting before the board session? Flat out snooring my head off, much to the annoyance of partner. There's usually True & the Rainbow Kingdom blarring on tele and some sort of super hero fight going on on the other settee.
-The board endurance training schedule you mention- 2/3 days on and then 4 off. Is this endurance for bouldering or for route climbing. If bouldering what endurance exercises do you prefer or found successful? Do you have 4 days complete rest in this cycle? 
Its short period power endurance ( an cap? or whatever they call it these days  :) ) 20-30 moves 1-2mins on. 4 times the rest. Aim for 6 to 8 of these, and I should be failing on the last couple if I've gauged it right. I do occasionally do switch to longer endurance (4+mins) but my board is a 50 and it ends up just jug hauling. I also have longridge 5 mins away so do that there. Yeah I usually do take about 4 off after a few days of this, unless I feel an easy session is ok or I just need to get on the board. It doesn't do my max finger strength much good but for all round fitness/strength I find it invaluable.

- What does a boulders de-load week look like in practice.? Is it same intensity but halving the amounts of sessions? Or do you dial back both.? How do you mean here? A resting/easy week? 

In terms of bouldering and strength, if that's what I'm on with.. the one thing I've become far more aware of is gauging how you feel on the warm up, and this dictates what Ill do in the session. The plan is go for max but if I'm not for pulling really hard and don't feel fresh enough too, Ill switch straight to some strength type problems and exercises. That way I know I can get an hour of something decent in, rather than flailing around for an hour, realising I'm not 100% and wasting the session. Nothing too wrong with this I think, as I used to have loads of sessions where you got no-where but at same time you were learning moves and positions etc. for the next session. But I haven't the time now for this.


Regarding the zinc suppliments, I was recommended to take these (can't remember if it was a doc or family) as I lost my dad to prostrate cancer about 6 year ago. After a bit of research there seemed big pluses for it but then I found research where if you're too high it increases the risk. I've not gone any further with it. Re-looking at the research against, it seems most of these were american studies, and the subjects were popping them like smarties and no doubt popping steaks at the same rate. So no surprise they had high levels. Around 120mgs a day intake.

DavidM

Offline
  • *
  • regular
  • Posts: 58
  • Karma: +1/-0
#24 Re: Recovery, Sleep and getting older
February 02, 2023, 08:20:42 am
I tend to agree I always try to prioritise sleep and take myself to bed early despite lack of free time with the kids in the evening. Helps the mrs is exhausted as well early evening so I don't mind winding down early and getting up early. 

For me changing to training at lunchtime has made the biggest change as any evening training seems to totally ruin my sleep. If it is at all possible I would give it a try.

Unfortunately this isn't a solution well maybe. I do have a home board and work within 8 mins bike from my home so potentially I could fit some training in my 1 hour lunch. I have in the past put a fingerboard and pull up session in that 40mins when I haven't had chance to climb but a board session might be a struggle and hasty and lack quality. At the weekends I train at lunch and feel my sleep /recover is somewhat is improved compared to early evening sessions.

I am not looking to recreate the deep blissful sleep pre kids or in my teens I know this isn't attainable and sleep quality is always going to degrade over time so I accept that. To this end I actually never had a problem with sleep or getting to sleep even in the midst of stressful times in my life. Some great takeaways from everyone thanks. 

 

SimplePortal 2.3.7 © 2008-2023, SimplePortal