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Whoop! Whoop? (Read 1921 times)

Paul B

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Whoop! Whoop?
January 26, 2023, 09:48:09 am
not the sound of da police!

Is anyone aware of a reliable alternative to Whoop for tracking recovery? Preferably one that doesn't involve a subscription service or buying an iProduct.

Whoop looks to be crazily expensive (£27/M) and I'm aware that when they recently changed their hardware, the subscription for existing members increased (despite the old hardware being unable to deliver the new features). I think JWI said it best with regards to software and subscription services with "I know how to multiply".

Work is a bit nuts/bad currently and it's leading to very inconsistent sleeping and pretty high stress levels and I've sat myself down ready to do a (aerobic) workout I'd usually find pretty reasonable and really struggled. I've also skipped training because I've been feeling a bit tired but had that nagging doubt that actually, I would've been OK. A bit of SCIENCE to point me in the right direction would be useful.

Bonus points for a solution which doesn't involve a watch with a screen the width of my upper forearm.

lagerstarfish

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#1 Re: Whoop! Whoop?
January 26, 2023, 09:52:58 am
get bigger forearms

invoice in the post

Paul B

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#2 Re: Whoop! Whoop?
January 26, 2023, 09:55:31 am
get bigger forearms

invoice in the post

Brought to you by Lagerstarfish Industries?  ;D

lagerstarfish

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#3 Re: Whoop! Whoop?
January 26, 2023, 09:57:04 am
Any reason why a standard Garmin with body battery wouldn't be sufficient?

My wife uses a Forerunner 245 for monitoring recovery and sleep (post covid shit etc)

lagerstarfish

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#4 Re: Whoop! Whoop?
January 26, 2023, 10:02:17 am
get bigger forearms

invoice in the post

Brought to you by Lagerstarfish Industries?  ;D

one simple monthly subscription payment will get you all the patronising advice you need

seankenny

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#5 Re: Whoop! Whoop?
January 26, 2023, 10:21:23 am
Any reason why a standard Garmin with body battery wouldn't be sufficient?

What lagers said. I use my Garmin to help with my long covid recovery which is kind of like normal recovery only more so. For me it’s really useful to see exactly how effective rest, breathwork, meditation and so on are being on any particular day - my body has difficulty switching between the sympathetic and parasympathetic nervous systems and having instant feedback really helps. I’ve got the Vivosmart and it’s unobtrusive, not worn a watch for decades before getting it and I don’t mind it at all.

Liamhutch89

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#6 Re: Whoop! Whoop?
January 26, 2023, 10:23:39 am
According to neuroscientist sleep researcher and author Dr Matthew Walker, no consumer devices currently provide even a remotely accurate measurement of sleep quality and often get quantity very wrong too. You need to directly measure brain waves to monitor sleep.

If you want the science to point you in the right direction, then you'd be better off having a consistent bedtime and waking up time (i.e. never lie in when the opportunity arises), spend at least 30 minutes every day outside in daylight before 10am, reduce light exposure (especially screens) in the hours before bedtime, maintain a cool pitch-black bedroom (blackout blinds), and no caffeine/alcohol after mid day.

Improving sleep alone should have a huge impact on recovery, but sleep and stress affect one another, so improving one could have a positive feedback on the other.

Edit - that's not to say don't purchase your tech of choice as well, the heart rate variability stuff looks interesting, although the research still seems a bit iffy.

lagerstarfish

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#7 Re: Whoop! Whoop?
January 26, 2023, 10:32:45 am
no... ...alcohol after mid day.

I love the idea that somewhere there are regular alcohol users who only drink in the mornings

SA Chris

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#8 Re: Whoop! Whoop?
January 26, 2023, 10:36:29 am
Cowboy coffee - 2 birds, one stone

James Malloch

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#9 Re: Whoop! Whoop?
January 26, 2023, 10:56:43 am
I can’t help on the actual devices, but if anyone has a link on what this kind of tracking involves (i.e. what you’re looking to get from it) then it would be interesting to read.

Oldmanmatt

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#10 Re: Whoop! Whoop?
January 26, 2023, 11:02:09 am
According to neuroscientist sleep researcher and author Dr Matthew Walker, no consumer devices currently provide even a remotely accurate measurement of sleep quality and often get quantity very wrong too. You need to directly measure brain waves to monitor sleep.

If you want the science to point you in the right direction, then you'd be better off having a consistent bedtime and waking up time (i.e. never lie in when the opportunity arises), spend at least 30 minutes every day outside in daylight before 10am, reduce light exposure (especially screens) in the hours before bedtime, maintain a cool pitch-black bedroom (blackout blinds), and no caffeine/alcohol after mid day.

Improving sleep alone should have a huge impact on recovery, but sleep and stress affect one another, so improving one could have a positive feedback on the other.

Edit - that's not to say don't purchase your tech of choice as well, the heart rate variability stuff looks interesting, although the research still seems a bit iffy.

Love this idea of improving stress levels (my sleep is absolutely shite atm).

I’ve come up with some strategies:

1: Quit job and become novice in Buddhist temple and confine my duties to sweeping the paths.

2: Send my Teens to live with Grandparents and only visit for one hour in every six months (you might have seen elsewhere my comment involving the words Daughter, Sixth-form, Common room, Vodka and possibly the phrase “turning up for a shift at McD’s pissed”? Well, mid-Teams meeting with her Deputy Head, last night (for me, 3pm for her) I had to break off to take a call from my son’s school, because the twat had stuck a pen in a plug socket, knocked out the entire Science wing’s power and fried his Physics teacher’s lap top).

3: Remember to never disagree with anything my partner says again, not even just with my eyes or being too slow to adopt a Poker face.

I think I’ve discovered the secret to life!

* I might just settle for the “Drinking in the morning” method though.
« Last Edit: January 26, 2023, 11:09:46 am by Oldmanmatt »

chrisbrooke

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#11 Re: Whoop! Whoop?
January 26, 2023, 11:05:00 am
The Oura ring looks interesting. Could be worth some research.

Paul B

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#12 Re: Whoop! Whoop?
January 26, 2023, 11:15:45 am
and no caffeine/alcohol after mid day.

You read the bit where I said work wasn't great right? There's no way I'm making it totally miserable.  :worms:

I can’t help on the actual devices, but if anyone has a link on what this kind of tracking involves (i.e. what you’re looking to get from it) then it would be interesting to read.

https://www.whoop.com/experience/recovery/
https://www.whoop.com/thelocker/heart-rate-variability-hrv/

Stabbsy

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#13 Re: Whoop! Whoop?
January 26, 2023, 12:57:41 pm
I acknowledge that it's far from perfect, but I use the body battery, average resting HR and HRV stuff on Garmin (Fenix 6 in my case, but others have it). The sleep score stuff seems way patchier in terms of amount of sleep, but what feels like a good night's sleep tends to scored as such and vice versa. Prior to my watch measuring HRV, I found average resting HR to be a good indicator of when I was over training or not recovering properly. HRV is maybe better overall as changes are more noticeable.

Interestingly, since Covid at Christmas, my average resting HR has been consistently 3 or 4 bpm higher and my HRV lower, so both are identifying some form of stress on my system.

This podcast had a load of stuff about HRV :-

https://podcasts.apple.com/gb/podcast/the-real-science-of-sport-podcast/id1461719225?i=1000574789164

And the guy being interviewed has an app (HRV4Training) that apparently measures HRV using the camera on a smartphone to a decent level of accuracy. Not tried it, but seemed like a clever idea. I think there's a free bit to it, but not sure much functionality you get versus the paid version.

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#14 Re: Whoop! Whoop?
January 26, 2023, 01:18:44 pm
I use Elite HRV app on my iPhone combined with a Tickr v1 HR strap. to take a 2m30s reading every morning. The app measures resting HR and HRV, which it then uses to give me a readiness score of 1-10.

Its not perfect and it does seem to pick up on micro stresses like when I get startled awake by the cat jumping on my face or something  and its given me a really low score despite feeling otherwise rested and ready to go. When this is the case I usually take another reading a few hours later if my HRV is up and my HR is down its go if not I take it easy.

seankenny

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#15 Re: Whoop! Whoop?
January 26, 2023, 01:47:13 pm
I’ve spent a year with a disordered nervous system that puts me in flight or fight mode for hours at a time for absolutely no reason - no one in my family is sticking a pen in a plug socket - and I’ve found things like breathing exercises and non-sleep deep rest to be invaluable for getting me out of that very stressed state. Having the garmin for feedback helps to validate what I’m doing and to show me how much of each activity acts as a minimal effective dose. It’s very encouraging when you do some calming activity and can see it changing your system in real time. It’s also very useful for seeing longer term patterns in how you deal with stress physiologically. Clearly it’s not totally accurate (I take the sleep stuff with a pinch of salt) but it seems to work when combined with listening to your body.

Paul B

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#16 Re: Whoop! Whoop?
January 26, 2023, 04:08:06 pm
Thanks for the input. It looks like something Garmin (:sick: - I absolutely loathed my GPS cycling computer which nearly got launched into several fields) made is the best bet.

The Vivosmarts look relatively small?

seankenny

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#17 Re: Whoop! Whoop?
January 26, 2023, 04:13:46 pm
Yes it’s tiny and unobtrusive.

Paul B

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#18 Re: Whoop! Whoop?
February 26, 2023, 04:11:25 pm
I went with the Vivosmart and it seems to have gone down well (perhaps because it stated Nat's fitness age as nigh on half her actual age?). I am however coming up a bit stumped at resolving duplication of events:

During the summer she/we'll be riding using a Wahoo! Elmnt Bolt that syncs itself to Strava/RidewithGPS (the latter as I like turn by turn directions and I'm tight).
During the winter we both use a WattBike Atom which itself links to Strava (and doesn't have many alternatives just Trainingpeaks and Google Fit).
The Vivosmart (4) seems to link to Strava via Garmin Connect but that seems to be a one way street (upload rather than sync).

What this means is currently rides are being uploaded twice, once from the device (Wattbike or Elmnt) and the other from the Vivosmart detecting an elevated heart rate (amusingly it did this after a hard interval session; 10mins after finishing it asked if she was stressed and told her to calm down by taking some deep breaths).

I'd imagine although Garmin software in my experience is generally a bit crap that Garmin Connect is at least two-way and would sync items uploaded from other devices and count those as part of the "body battery" score?

I know Liam said it, and we all know it, but it's fascinating to see just how bad alcohol seems to be with regards to sleep.

 

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