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One-arm hang setup (Read 3324 times)

James Malloch

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One-arm hang setup
January 19, 2023, 10:47:12 am
This year I‘d like to do some hangs as part of my training and I‘m wondering how best to go about it.

A lot of protocols often seem to talk about reducing the edge size rather than increasing weight. At the moment I‘ve got a BM 2000 ready to go up, and I might get some reducers 3D printed so I can easily change the depth of the slot.

However another option is getting some holds made from a friend and mounting them on a stepped board in a 3x3 grid. Maybe sizes ranging from 25mm down to 15mm in 2mm steps. These would all have the same curved edge so it is just the depth changing as well.

The BM has the benefit of easily being able to train other things (back 2/3, mono etc), but I‘m wondering if a series of edges might be easier.

I know the BM is a little bit incut but I guess if your numbers are going up you‘re still getting some benefit. But perhaps something a bit less rounded might be better?

Does anyone have any views/preferences for this kind of thing? Does it matter?

spidermonkey09

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#1 Re: One-arm hang setup
January 19, 2023, 11:03:13 am
Just use the bottom middle edge on the BM2000 and a pulley setup. You also can just reduce the size of the edges/slots with a peg or battery, no need to go to expense.

If you want/need variation in edge size you can use bottom outside on the BM2000, which is smaller than bottom middle, or use ther big central slot with a peg at the back, or the slots on the outside middle with a battery. I've always just used bottom middle for one arm hangs and its been effective.


Liamhutch89

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#2 Re: One-arm hang setup
January 19, 2023, 11:09:28 am
I believe current thinking is that transferability to edge size is somewhat specific, but for maximum recruitment of the finger flexors you'd mainly want to train on a larger edge (e.g. 20-25mm depending on finger size). Bottom middle on the BM2K as Spidermonkey says would be perfect since you have the strength for one arm hangs (I don't!). Again, according to current thinking, you'd then want to get the edge size co-ordination / specificity through real climbing or board climbing on small holds (which also provides the speed/power aspects). Small edge training on a fingerboard may be useful if you still feel you need more stimulus.


spidermonkey09

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#3 Re: One-arm hang setup
January 19, 2023, 11:51:40 am
you have the strength for one arm hangs (I don't!).

Citation needed! Surely you'd get a lot out of one armed hangs. Given your general level of strength surely you'd be able to hang 7 seconds with a somewhere between 5-10kg of assistance on a pulley?

Liamhutch89

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#4 Re: One-arm hang setup
January 19, 2023, 12:09:29 pm
you have the strength for one arm hangs (I don't!).

Citation needed! Surely you'd get a lot out of one armed hangs. Given your general level of strength surely you'd be able to hang 7 seconds with a somewhere between 5-10kg of assistance on a pulley?

Don't be fooled by my obsessive compulsions for training and largely-useless-for-climbing-feats-of-strength being any sort of indicator for my level of finger strength - it's still rubbish in anything but a thumb over full crimp and I'm still very heavy! During my last peak/recruitment phase at the end of summer I hit a 150% bodyweight half crimp on the Lattice edge. I'm only just entering another peak phase following a few months of repeaters, so we'll see where I get up to, but I'm drinking the Tyler Nelson Kool-Aid and giving the active-tension route a try this time (see the other thread!).

spidermonkey09

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#5 Re: One-arm hang setup
January 19, 2023, 12:21:26 pm

 at the end of summer I hit a 150% bodyweight half crimp on the Lattice edge.

Given thats a harder edge to hold than most, (a bit slopey) I think that would be comfortably enough to try some 1 arm hangs; despite being a crimp waif I think 150% bodyweight would be very close to my max on two armed hangs. Mostly I just got bored dragging 30+kg about, one arm hangs feel low admin by comparison!

Bradders

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#6 Re: One-arm hang setup
January 19, 2023, 01:06:51 pm
I believe current thinking is that transferability to edge size is somewhat specific

This waxes and wanes so much. A few years ago it was all about keeping a bigger edge size and adding more weight. Before that it was reducing edge size. Now it's about doing it with pinky bent.

The thing that hasn't changed is the need for consistency and progressive overload. The edge size matters far less than turning up week in, week out, doing the same session each time and gradually changing one or two of the volume / intensity / rest period dials. No need to overcomplicate it with loads of different edge sizes James.

Liamhutch89

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#7 Re: One-arm hang setup
January 19, 2023, 01:32:28 pm
I believe current thinking is that transferability to edge size is somewhat specific

This waxes and wanes so much. A few years ago it was all about keeping a bigger edge size and adding more weight. Before that it was reducing edge size. Now it's about doing it with pinky bent.

The thing that hasn't changed is the need for consistency and progressive overload. The edge size matters far less than turning up week in, week out, doing the same session each time and gradually changing one or two of the volume / intensity / rest period dials. No need to overcomplicate it with loads of different edge sizes James.

Completely agree with the sentiment and conclusions, but there is definitely some truth to edge size specificity. I see it in my own training depending on how much I've been pulling on small holds, and I think last time we compared results, you're way better than me on a 20mm edge but I do a bit better on micros?

buster martin

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#8 Re: One-arm hang setup
January 19, 2023, 02:00:30 pm
I believe current thinking is that transferability to edge size is somewhat specific

This waxes and wanes so much. A few years ago it was all about keeping a bigger edge size and adding more weight. Before that it was reducing edge size. Now it's about doing it with pinky bent.

The thing that hasn't changed is the need for consistency and progressive overload. The edge size matters far less than turning up week in, week out, doing the same session each time and gradually changing one or two of the volume / intensity / rest period dials. No need to overcomplicate it with loads of different edge sizes James.

The longstanding principle of specificity is not a trend and is just as valid as the points you mention in regard to overload and consistency.

I appreciate the idea of not getting too caught up in the details but considering edge size and the variety in adaptions as a result is a valid thing to consider. Strength is specific and gaining a base of maximal force production early in a training cycle on a larger edge and then learning to apply this force to a more specific context is a good strategy. This is similar to how gymnasts use basic weight training to improve maximal force production to then later apply this to the more specific strength and skills of a given movement.

When getting into finger boarding for the first time the gains are likely more transferable and the need for a high-level specificity is less. To begin with, I agree that keeping things simple and then getting more specific later down the line is a good approach.

 - Start on a decent size edge, 20-25mm is a good shout. This is a nice stable surface that won't be too impacted by skin or conditions, and should allow a good level of force to be used without the skill element of small edges or specific grip types.

- Use one or two arms. Neither has any particular benefit over the other but starting with the one that is most accessible in terms of setup and that allows you to produce the most force through your fingers is likely best. Some may find that the shoulders are a limiting factor for one arm hangs whereas others experience a bilateral strength deficit and can produce more force with one limb.

- Choose a basic grip type or types that are a weakness or specific to your goals. Half crimp, 3 finger drag or both are good as a start.

- Start with a max hang protocol, to build a general base of force production and reduce your risk of injury. Increase intensity as progress allows by reducing assistance or adding weight. You could also increase 'difficulty' by reducing edge size but I'd save that for later down the line and focus on gains in absolute force production in a simple context.

- Stick with a protocol until progress stops, then consider switching things up. Increase volume, use a new set/rep scheme, increase rpe and go closer to failure or get more specific on smaller edges, pockets or a certain grip type.

- Most importantly find a way to autoregulate and adjust your training around fluctuations in your physical state, don't get too attached to numbers or percentages and be happy to adjust things down if needed.

James Malloch

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#9 Re: One-arm hang setup
January 19, 2023, 03:23:16 pm
Thanks for all of the tips and responses.

I‘ll go with the BM 2000 for now then and saw how it goes. Seems to be the right kind of size edge (Same as I do my 2 arm hangs on) and a decent one to start on. It‘s also standardised across climbing gyms so when I can do a BW hang I can show off basically anywhere.

To start with I was going to take more weight off (e.g. 10kg) and reduce it by a kilo each session to try and get the level about right. The plan was to do:

1 x 10s hang on with slightly bent arm
1 x 10s hang with 90 degree lock
1 x 10s hang with full lock.

Then repeat 3 times with about 3 mis rests between attempts (or just start on every 3rd minute). I can‘t lock off on a jug so might have to see if the weight needs to change for the locked-off ones. And I‘ll aim to do it twice a week.

I‘m not sure on progression, but I was thinking that when I could do the full nine 10s hangs on each arm, I would make it a kilo harder, and see how it was. If it‘s noticeably harder, then maybe aim for 8s hangs and work my way back up to 10s, then repeat. Does this sound sensible?

I‘m keen to do a bit on drags (front and back 2/3) as buster mentioned too, but probably just some BW stuff for now to avoid overdoing anything.

One thing buster said was to stay with a protocol until progress stops - with hangs would you be expecting to adjust weight fairly frequently (e.g. weekly) or are things slower than that?

Bradders

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#10 Re: One-arm hang setup
January 19, 2023, 03:31:40 pm
I appreciate the idea of not getting too caught up in the details but considering edge size and the variety in adaptions as a result is a valid thing to consider. Strength is specific and gaining a base of maximal force production early in a training cycle on a larger edge and then learning to apply this force to a more specific context is a good strategy. This is similar to how gymnasts use basic weight training to improve maximal force production to then later apply this to the more specific strength and skills of a given movement.

When getting into finger boarding for the first time the gains are likely more transferable and the need for a high-level specificity is less. To begin with, I agree that keeping things simple and then getting more specific later down the line is a good approach.

Cheers, we're kind of saying the same thing.

I'm absolutely not saying specificity isn't important, I'm saying it's not the thing to start with, and the fashion has changed considerably over the years; the implication being it's important not to get distracted by what everyone else is doing and focus on doing a protocol (whatever that is) consistently rather than skipping around.

Liamhutch89

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#11 Re: One-arm hang setup
January 19, 2023, 04:09:23 pm
James, I'm not sure what you're trying to achieve by varying the angle at the elbow? You mention that you can't lock off on a jug, so this is going to be your limiting factor when performing one arm hangs with almost any degree of lock. If you want to train your lock off strength you'd be better off doing them on a bar (or better still, weighted pullups).

9 sets in half crimp would be a lot to start with!  Since you've not done much fingerboarding before, you're going to respond to a lot less. Maybe start with 4 sets on each arm? Ideally, we always want the minimal effective dose of training to elicit gains. This gives us scope to increase volume when we inevitably plateau.

You could do a benchmarking session to test your max then work off percentages e.g. start at 80% of your max on week 1, do 4 sets on each arm (or both arms), then on week 2 you up the load to 82.5% and so on. Alternatively, each session you could just work up to your max (with 1-2 seconds in reserve), then back off the total load by 5-10% (bodyweight plus weight added or subtracted) and perform sets until you're back to only having 1s in reserve. This method means you'll tend not to overwork on weak/fatigued days and also take advantage of strong days.  Eventually, you will plateau via any method and that's when you need to start devising more cunning plans, which might include increasing the volume, varying the hang time, frequency of training, etc.

James Malloch

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#12 Re: One-arm hang setup
January 19, 2023, 05:19:25 pm
James, I'm not sure what you're trying to achieve by varying the angle at the elbow? You mention that you can't lock off on a jug, so this is going to be your limiting factor when performing one arm hangs with almost any degree of lock. If you want to train your lock off strength you'd be better off doing them on a bar (or better still, weighted pullups).


To be honest it was just something I’d found online. I assumed it would work more things at once, but I guess that’s not really the point of max hangs! I’ll stick with what’s feeling comfortable for the one arm stuff.

And I’m going to be doing weighted pulls as well on a different day so hopefully I’ll target them anyway via that 👍🏻


9 sets in half crimp would be a lot to start with!  Since you've not done much fingerboarding before, you're going to respond to a lot less. Maybe start with 4 sets on each arm? Ideally, we always want the minimal effective dose of training to elicit gains. This gives us scope to increase volume when we inevitably plateau.


Also a good point, 9 sets was mentioned by a friend but he’s much stronger and has a better training base behind him so I’ll go with less and see how it goes for a while, thanks!



You could do a benchmarking session to test your max then work off percentages e.g. start at 80% of your max on week 1, do 4 sets on each arm (or both arms), then on week 2 you up the load to 82.5% and so on. Alternatively, each session you could just work up to your max (with 1-2 seconds in reserve), then back off the total load by 5-10% (bodyweight plus weight added or subtracted) and perform sets until you're back to only having 1s in reserve. This method means you'll tend not to overwork on weak/fatigued days and also take advantage of strong days.  Eventually, you will plateau via any method and that's when you need to start devising more cunning plans, which might include increasing the volume, varying the hang time, frequency of training, etc.

With the second approach, do you mean work to the max each session - so reducing the assistance weight each hang - or use sessions to work out the max (avoiding the initial benchmark session) and then move to approach 1 after that?

spidermonkey09

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#13 Re: One-arm hang setup
January 19, 2023, 07:28:17 pm
The differing angle at the elbow sounds like its been drawn from the old Chris Webb Parsons fingerboard routine that was doing the rounds in 2012 ish.

Re routines, I do 7 second hangs, 2 mins rest, x 5 on each arm. I don't move on to less assistance until I do all 5 sets on both arms with good finger form. Never bothered with percentages but that would work as well.

Liamhutch89

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#14 Re: One-arm hang setup
January 19, 2023, 08:00:26 pm
With the second approach, do you mean work to the max each session - so reducing the assistance weight each hang - or use sessions to work out the max (avoiding the initial benchmark session) and then move to approach 1 after that?

Yep, each session you work up to your 'max', although it's not a true max as you should leave 1-2 seconds in reserve. Your remaining sets are then done at a slightly lower intensity by subtracting around 5% from the total load. At this reduced load, you will likely have 2-3s in reserve for the first set and you should complete as many sets as possible until you feel that you only have 1-2s in reserve (although have a cut off to begin with). Be strict with the seconds in reserve, don't go to failure and also be strict with rest times or this method doesn't really work (3 min is a good starting point).

The beauty of this method is that it regulates the intensity and number of sets depending on how you're feeling. On a weak day, your max will be lower and you'll manage fewer sets before you have to call it a day. Had you stuck to a set % prescribed by a prewritten plan, you might have repeatedly gone to failure digging yourself further into the recovery hole. On a strong day, you'll take advantage and do more sets with more load.

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#15 Re: One-arm hang setup
February 23, 2023, 04:14:44 pm
James, I'm not sure what you're trying to achieve by varying the angle at the elbow? You mention that you can't lock off on a jug, so this is going to be your limiting factor when performing one arm hangs with almost any degree of lock. If you want to train your lock off strength you'd be better off doing them on a bar (or better still, weighted pullups).

9 sets in half crimp would be a lot to start with!  Since you've not done much fingerboarding before, you're going to respond to a lot less. Maybe start with 4 sets on each arm? Ideally, we always want the minimal effective dose of training to elicit gains. This gives us scope to increase volume when we inevitably plateau.

You could do a benchmarking session to test your max then work off percentages e.g. start at 80% of your max on week 1, do 4 sets on each arm (or both arms), then on week 2 you up the load to 82.5% and so on. Alternatively, each session you could just work up to your max (with 1-2 seconds in reserve), then back off the total load by 5-10% (bodyweight plus weight added or subtracted) and perform sets until you're back to only having 1s in reserve. This method means you'll tend not to overwork on weak/fatigued days and also take advantage of strong days.  Eventually, you will plateau via any method and that's when you need to start devising more cunning plans, which might include increasing the volume, varying the hang time, frequency of training, etc.

I really like this approach of working to max and back, I'll adopt it.
Reminds me of something in Ned's Beastmaking book - he mentions on max hangs not being too fixated on hang length, he considered a successful rep to be between 6-12 seconds or something. This was due to variability in physical condition, temperature, skin etc.

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#16 Re: One-arm hang setup
February 23, 2023, 05:40:44 pm
Ned also suggests that the vast majority of the time he does "long max hangs" of 20 seconds rather than the shorter ones which I've been doing for years of between 5 and 10 which I found interesting. Have been doing more long ones recently.

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#17 Re: One-arm hang setup
February 24, 2023, 08:10:24 am
Follow the classic Chris Webb Parsons workout

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#18 Re: One-arm hang setup
February 24, 2023, 09:12:39 am
I've never done long hangs. But I did find a lot of success with a 7/10 protocol, where I'd add weight in roughly 5kg/2.5kg amounts if I could hang for 10 seconds, and drop it back if I couldn't hang for 7 seconds. If it was between the two, I'd maintain the same weight.

So I might do warmup and then do 30kgs for 10 seconds, 35 for 10, 37.5 for 10, 40 for 10, 42.5 for 10, 45 for 8, 45 for 6, 42.5 for 8, done

I found that really pushed max strength and brought out a proper willingness to try hard.

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#19 Re: One-arm hang setup
February 24, 2023, 09:13:30 am
James, I'm not sure what you're trying to achieve by varying the angle at the elbow?

There seem to be three school of thought here:
1. Do it at your strongest angle since this allows you to maximise the load.
2. Do it at all angles since the different angles subtly change the loading (e.g. bent arm allows you to weight back 3 more heavily than front 3, for me at least), and recruiting the fingers feels different at different angles... and you need to be strong in all positions not just one when it comes to real rock.
3. Do it straight armed since this "isolates" the fingers more.

For what it's worth, option 2 makes the most sense to me. Option 3 has never made sense since the forces all have to travel through your fingers in the end somehow, unless you're lat happens to be dabbing the edge you're hanging.

Liamhutch89

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#20 Re: One-arm hang setup
February 24, 2023, 09:23:18 am
James, I'm not sure what you're trying to achieve by varying the angle at the elbow?

There seem to be three school of thought here:
1. Do it at your strongest angle since this allows you to maximise the load.
2. Do it at all angles since the different angles subtly change the loading (e.g. bent arm allows you to weight back 3 more heavily than front 3, for me at least), and recruiting the fingers feels different at different angles... and you need to be strong in all positions not just one when it comes to real rock.
3. Do it straight armed since this "isolates" the fingers more.

For what it's worth, option 2 makes the most sense to me. Option 3 has never made sense since the forces all have to travel through your fingers in the end somehow, unless you're lat happens to be dabbing the edge you're hanging.

I don't disagree with your thinking, but since I was making recommendations specific to James' strengths and weaknesses, don't you think he'd be better off separating lock-offs and finger training for the time being if he can't lock off on a bar? Once he isn't limited by lock-off strength then it might make more sense to vary the angle? (although I'd still preferably train this on the wall myself).

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#21 Re: One-arm hang setup
February 24, 2023, 09:24:30 am
I think if time/motivation was unlimited it prob does make sense to vary the arm angle, but 9 hangs on each arm every session makes for a pretty big session of max hangs. And the more hangs you do, the further you are from your max surely?

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#22 Re: One-arm hang setup
February 24, 2023, 09:33:22 am
Ned also suggests that the vast majority of the time he does "long max hangs" of 20 seconds rather than the shorter ones which I've been doing for years of between 5 and 10 which I found interesting. Have been doing more long ones recently.

I'm currently on my best ever form and my hangs* for the last 7 weeks have been for around 1-2 seconds per rep  :-\.

*I don't actually hang, I pull against an immovable edge anchored to the floor.

However, looking at how every other sport trains strength, there's not going to be one best time-under-tension and it's probably a good idea to vary it at different times of the week/month/year depending on how you periodize your training.

One thing I don't buy is that hypertrophy of the finger flexors is anywhere near as important as neuromuscular recruitment for finger strength. If this were the case, I might expect to have stronger fingers than Will Bosi and Allison Vest, but I do not! Long hangs for capacity makes more sense.

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#23 Re: One-arm hang setup
February 24, 2023, 09:36:49 am
I don't disagree with your thinking, but since I was making recommendations specific to James' strengths and weaknesses, don't you think he'd be better off separating lock-offs and finger training for the time being if he can't lock off on a bar? Once he isn't limited by lock-off strength then it might make more sense to vary the angle? (although I'd still preferably train this on the wall myself).

Yeah, I can definitely see the logic for that, though maybe it depends on how far off a lock he is and how strong the fingers are.. if he can lock with 2kg assist and is doing 1-arm hangs with 10kg assist I think probably you'd be far enough enough from arm failure to make it worth doing the different angles. If it's 10kg assist to lock a jug and 10kg assist on an edge then probably not such a good idea!

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#24 Re: One-arm hang setup
February 24, 2023, 09:58:50 am
I don't disagree with your thinking, but since I was making recommendations specific to James' strengths and weaknesses, don't you think he'd be better off separating lock-offs and finger training for the time being if he can't lock off on a bar? Once he isn't limited by lock-off strength then it might make more sense to vary the angle? (although I'd still preferably train this on the wall myself).

Yeah, I can definitely see the logic for that, though maybe it depends on how far off a lock he is and how strong the fingers are.. if he can lock with 2kg assist and is doing 1-arm hangs with 10kg assist I think probably you'd be far enough enough from arm failure to make it worth doing the different angles. If it's 10kg assist to lock a jug and 10kg assist on an edge then probably not such a good idea!

Yeah that makes sense. For a new hangboarder, I'd still advise on doing the minimal effective dose and picking one angle until they plateau.

 

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