[hongkongstuey]

having come across sh#t like this too often, and even the rather pungent maggot infested remnants of one pad (the smell was rank), i fall very firmly in the anti-stashing camp... (and will actively remove from spots in HK unless someone has left a name and number on the pad as a mark of ownership - so i know who to chase down and then name and shame at the end of the season)

[Durbs]

Outer material aside, they are all filled with basically plastic - and lots of it. I don't think anyone's making natural sea-sponge bouldering mats yet?

So very un-biodegradable/digestable.

From a punters' perspective, I've never come across stashed pads, and never had cause to stash them - but much like tick-marks, to non-climbers coming across them, they're unsightly at best, littering at worst.

[scragrock]

having come across sh#t like this too often, and even the rather pungent maggot infested remnants of one pad (the smell was rank), i fall very firmly in the anti-stashing camp... (and will actively remove from spots in HK unless someone has left a name and number on the pad as a mark of ownership - so i know who to chase down and then name and shame at the end of the season)

The example shown is clearly Not stashed but dumped, so in this case i would tend to agree with your actions.

That is very far away from what i do, i would challenge you to find the area, then find the hidden pads{in caves}.

[cheque]

That is very far away from what i do, i would challenge you to find the area, then find the hidden pads{in caves}.

Can we keep them if we find them?

[scragrock]

That is very far away from what i do, i would challenge you to find the area, then find the hidden pads{in caves}.

Can we keep them if we find them?

Lol, Yes and good luck finding the area, getting permission from the various estates to use the private roads and parking, finding the wee caves, removing the pads from the caves as one item{they are padlocked together}, getting them past the Head game keepers/Estate staff, getting them out of Strathnairn {i have a flock of highly trained Slavonian Grebes who attack on command} , getting them out and on to the A9 { the locals will hunt you down and sacrifice you in a Wicker Man, Edwa WooWooWa kind of fashion}. Getting out of the Highlands {eventually the lack of sunlight will cause your body to shut down, slowly drawing into a layby just after the Slocht summit you will succumb to a dire black depression and probably end it all in a horror show asphyxy wank, to be found days later by the local police bound and gagged in the driver seat of your Ford Capri}.

Or....you could just leave em where they are

[andy_e]

You forgot about the wild yetis that roam the area, they've just come out of hibernation after today's snow

[scragrock]

You forgot about the wild yetis that roam the area, they've just come out of hibernation after today's snow

Is that an early 80s musical starring Barbra Streisand?, if so its way more terrifying than a horde of semi frozen mythical beasts 

[SA Chris]

you left out being brutally savaged by a pack of feral haggis. More dangerous than dropbears when they detect the scent of thievery afoot.

[Fultonius]

having come across sh#t like this too often, and even the rather pungent maggot infested remnants of one pad (the smell was rank), i fall very firmly in the anti-stashing camp... (and will actively remove from spots in HK unless someone has left a name and number on the pad as a mark of ownership - so i know who to chase down and then name and shame at the end of the season)

The example shown is clearly Not stashed but dumped, so in this case i would tend to agree with your actions.

That is very far away from what i do, i would challenge you to find the area, then find the hidden pads{in caves}.

Scraggers, I kind of think it's a wee bit of a stretch to apply this argument / issue in the vast unpopulated highlands. I mean, it took boulderers 25 years to even find the spots in the first place. It ain't Burbage! 

[Droyd]

Is there a distinction to be made, then, between stashing pads when climbing purely for yourself (going out and repeating established problems, as most of us do) and when developing a boulder or area? It’s not something I thought about when writing my posts and I’m pretty ignorant in terms of how much hard graft goes into the parts of the process that don’t involve climbing shoes and chalk. If so I guess that comes down to how you see developing: are people who develop problems and areas doing so out of a pure love for the community and desire to give others fantastic experiences, due to egotism and a love of seeing their names written down, or because of a simple lack of interest in climbing established problems and preference for the unknown? Regardless of intent the rest of us get to enjoy more climbs (assuming the developer documents what they’ve done), but for reasons I struggle to articulate it feels like more slack should be cut for altruistic developers than the monomaniacal Gary Gibsons of the bouldering world in terms of stashing.

However, that only deals with the laziness/personal achievement aspect, rather than the ecological and ‘moral’ (in the heaviest of inverted commas) ones, in that it’s only a defence of the practice if your primary issue is with stashed pads being found. A pad at a crag that other climbers don’t know about and that is miles off the beaten track and hard to access is unlikely to be found by other climbers and walkers, but it’ll still be found by the local fauna, and still be pollution if events conspire to stop the owner returning. The ‘if a tree falls in the forest’ meme kind of misses the point, in that the issue isn’t the ‘event’, i.e. the tree falling down (the pad being stashed), but the consequences of the event. The idea that the perfect instance of stashing a pad (whereby you stash it, use it, retrieve it, no one found it, and it’s as if it never happened) isn’t the problem – it’s when things don’t go to plan.

I guess the heavy-handed analogy here is regular instances of littering (with the massive caveat that anyone who chooses to drop a Snickers wrapper while walking in the Lakes is a massive wanker, but that’s not what I’m saying about anyone stashing a pad. I’m just trying to pick a hole in the logic of it). I think that most people who litter genuinely do not think about the consequences of their actions: their thought process either stops at ‘I don’t want to hang onto this piece of garbage’ and doesn’t continue to a consideration of the place, or they do get that far but make their decision to litter on the assumption that someone else will eventually pick it up. In both instances they’re not thinking ‘fuck it, I do not respect this place’, because they’re not acting with the intention to leave a non-biodegradable piece of garbage in a beautiful environment permanently; that’s just an unintended outcome of the chain of events of them leaving it and other people not clearing it up. I think that that’s analogous to the ‘I’ll definitely come back’ approach in that it’s all well and good if you clear up after yourself, but if that doesn’t transpire then your previous act of stashing has become an act of littering (as happens if life gets in the way). So the argument that stashing pads is not littering is wholly contingent on intention with regard to your future self, but until your future self gets his or her arse in gear and actually goes go back it functionally is litter, because it’s a non-biodegradable object that’s been consciously left in a natural environment. I guess the dog-shit analogy up-thread is similar but even more heavy-handed, emotive, and judgemental. In essence, we’re talking about Schrödinger's boulder pad – in quantum superposition, a state of garbage and not-garbage, until connies are sufficiently good that a wave-function collapse occurs in the form of the owner returning, sending the gnar, and taking their shit home with them.

I do stress that I’m absolutely not having a go at anyone, either specifically or in general – I’m a total punter thinking about things in simple, black and white terms, in relation to my own experience of just bumbling about and enjoying all of the problems that other people have put time and effort into developing. I guess it’s similar to how we should all be thinking about lifestyle changes for reasons of climate change, in terms of recognising that what would be ideal is not necessarily achievable and not condemning others for failing to share your values.

[scragrock]

having come across sh#t like this too often, and even the rather pungent maggot infested remnants of one pad (the smell was rank), i fall very firmly in the anti-stashing camp... (and will actively remove from spots in HK unless someone has left a name and number on the pad as a mark of ownership - so i know who to chase down and then name and shame at the end of the season)

The example shown is clearly Not stashed but dumped, so in this case i would tend to agree with your actions.

That is very far away from what i do, i would challenge you to find the area, then find the hidden pads{in caves}.

Scraggers, I kind of think it's a wee bit of a stretch to apply this argument / issue in the vast unpopulated highlands. I mean, it took boulderers 25 years to even find the spots in the first place. It ain't Burbage!

Yup, kind of my point. Like many arguments it works on a sliding scale of nuance and specifics. 

[kac]

Droyd not wanting to have an argument but why should we not condemn people for doing things that we think are wrong? Like say not littering at the crag, not leaving boulders plastered in chalk, retro peg bolting, not shitting at the crag, etc.  People can respond and say why they think they should be able to do these things.

[Droyd]

Droyd not wanting to have an argument but why should we not condemn people for doing things that we think are wrong? Like say not littering at the crag, not leaving boulders plastered in chalk, retro peg bolting, not shitting at the crag, etc.  People can respond and say why they think they should be able to do these things.

I think you absolutely should condemn things if that's how you feel (although I disagree with the equating of pad stashing and  taking a shit at the crag), as that's how consensus is formed. I don't agree with doing it for the reasons outlined, but am making my case while arguing that you can disagree with something without condemning either the action or the person. In addition, I'm arguing that I don't see it as acceptable within the context of my bouldering (mostly in the Peak, not developing things) but am noting that other people have wildly different approaches and experiences.

[Will Hunt]

Droyd, you're too nice. Let's see more condemning. Hang 'em high. Liven the place up a bit.

[Bonjoy]

... are people who develop problems and areas doing so out of a pure love for the community and desire to give others fantastic experiences, due to egotism and a love of seeing their names written down, or because of a simple lack of interest in climbing established problems and preference for the unknown?

Personally? All of those reasons, plus a few more.
I don't think FAist's should be given any special dispensation. But they are more likely than most to find themself in the position that pad stashing is of higher value and lower risk. They are often solo (for various sensible reasons), so they have less pads, but need more as they don't have a spotter. They're often carrying extra/heavy kit. A given problem is likely to require more sessions then a repeat. They are often at a very obscure location (not the Terrace!).
I can think of four times I've stashed pads. In two of these it was for access reasons as a stealth approach was required and repeatedly ferrying in pads quite likely to draw unwanted attention.
I'm not advocating the practice, just explaining my justification at the time.
As with many things which live in the grey area, it's kind of arguably okay(ish) until  it becomes vaguely mainstream, at which point it rapidly becomes unsustainable.

[Andy B]

There are currently at least two pads  under Dogs Dinner Buttress in Cheedale, that are clearly visible from the Monsal Trail on the bridge above.

[Bonjoy]

That's definitely idiotic, and will require a site visit next week. I don't have storage, so they'll have to be given away or disposed of. I'd suggest if they belong to anyone who reads this, they go and get them (and any knackered ones at Badger Cove) over the weekend.

[GazM]

My tuppence as someone that spends a fair bit of my climbing time developing Highland choss: I sometimes stash pads at places that will require multiple visits and when I think it's very unlikely that anyone else will find them, and never for longer than a few weeks at a time. But I'm well aware that Highland development is at one end of a spectrum, with repeating long established problems relatively close to paths and roads at the other.

[JamieG]

I tried to explain pad stashing to my wife and her response was ‘if you have to stash a pad, you should be questioning your hobby choice!’  So there you go!

[Eddies]

Pad stashing is like stashing a bag of you dog's shite on-route to be collected on your way home.... It is still littering.
The person who discovers your stash doesn't know when you intend to return to it.

Stashing is not OK, in any form

This is a little bit black and white don't you think?

All my pads are stashed between 2 locations in dry hidden caves in new areas i am developing, i bike lock them in case any random might try and tidy/nick them{this is highly unlikely}.

My reason for doing so is a mix of time restriction, age, long term injury and lack of power/endurance to walk in {30 mins} with pads and gear to clean, then climb and walk out with them.

I am open to a debate on the ethics of this and a genuine fair and frank conversation would be appreciated.

Thanks

Yes... Subjects like this need to be  B&W otherwise people will always think they have a special exemption.

[scragrock]

Pad stashing is like stashing a bag of you dog's shite on-route to be collected on your way home.... It is still littering.
The person who discovers your stash doesn't know when you intend to return to it.

Stashing is not OK, in any form

This is a little bit black and white don't you think?

All my pads are stashed between 2 locations in dry hidden caves in new areas i am developing, i bike lock them in case any random might try and tidy/nick them{this is highly unlikely}.

My reason for doing so is a mix of time restriction, age, long term injury and lack of power/endurance to walk in {30 mins} with pads and gear to clean, then climb and walk out with them.

I am open to a debate on the ethics of this and a genuine fair and frank conversation would be appreciated.

Thanks

Yes... Subjects like this need to be  B&W otherwise people will always think they have a special exemption.

Do you think i see myself as a special exemption?

Also an exception from what?

[Fiend]

[
Yes... Subjects like this need to be  B&W otherwise people will always think they have a special exemption.

And maybe they do?!

In essence, we’re talking about Schrödinger's boulder pad – in quantum superposition, a state of garbage and not-garbage, until connies are sufficiently good that a wave-function collapse occurs in the form of the owner returning, sending the gnar, and taking their shit home with them.

...and this is why UKB and the debates on it are occasionally great   

[Eddies]

Pad stashing is like stashing a bag of you dog's shite on-route to be collected on your way home.... It is still littering.
The person who discovers your stash doesn't know when you intend to return to it.

Stashing is not OK, in any form

This is a little bit black and white don't you think?

All my pads are stashed between 2 locations in dry hidden caves in new areas i am developing, i bike lock them in case any random might try and tidy/nick them{this is highly unlikely}.

My reason for doing so is a mix of time restriction, age, long term injury and lack of power/endurance to walk in {30 mins} with pads and gear to clean, then climb and walk out with them.

I am open to a debate on the ethics of this and a genuine fair and frank conversation would be appreciated.

Thanks

Yes... Subjects like this need to be  B&W otherwise people will always think they have a special exemption.

Do you think i see myself as a special exemption?

Also an exception from what?

The Country Code, of course!

Leave the countryside as you found it... Leave No Trace!

Take your litter home... All litter is unsightly and can be dangerous to livestock and wildlife.

Respect other recreational users... Irresponsible behaviour could lead to you and your activity being banned from the area in the future.

[abarro81]

You sound like the sort of person who'll now try to tell people that leaving draws in is never acceptable.

[scragrock]

Pad stashing is like stashing a bag of you dog's shite on-route to be collected on your way home.... It is still littering.
The person who discovers your stash doesn't know when you intend to return to it.

Stashing is not OK, in any form

This is a little bit black and white don't you think?

All my pads are stashed between 2 locations in dry hidden caves in new areas i am developing, i bike lock them in case any random might try and tidy/nick them{this is highly unlikely}.

My reason for doing so is a mix of time restriction, age, long term injury and lack of power/endurance to walk in {30 mins} with pads and gear to clean, then climb and walk out with them.

I am open to a debate on the ethics of this and a genuine fair and frank conversation would be appreciated.

Thanks

Yes... Subjects like this need to be  B&W otherwise people will always think they have a special exemption.

Do you think i see myself as a special exemption?

Also an exception from what?

The Country Code, of course!

Leave the countryside as you found it... Leave No Trace!

Take your litter home... All litter is unsightly and can be dangerous to livestock and wildlife.

Respect other recreational users... Irresponsible behaviour could lead to you and your activity being banned from the area in the future.

Ok, fair enough.
So does that still apply if i have specific permission to clean/climb/stash gear and pads{in an out of site location} by the land owners?