[Droyd]

On a far more crucial note, what happens when something that was put up by an old-school crusher (who walked their pads in and climbed on the same day) is repeated by a new-school pad-stasher (who got to saunter along the walk-in unencumbered and arrive better-rested)? Do we need to have separate grades to reflect this? What's the conversion between pad-laden and pad-less approaches to ascents? Is it a purer style of ascent and better for the environment if I get my pads helicoptered in rather than stashing them? 

[Fiend]

Hard bouldering is not the same as hard pad-lugging though (it may have much more coincidence with hard pad-throwing of course  ), and someone could be considerably more capable of one than the other - whatever their level.

I still think the idea of stashing pads at Burbage is funny but if it turns out they were stashed by someone who has a condition that prevents them carrying pads and climbing on the same day then I’ll apologise and feel like a dick.

This is interesting and a bit more nuanced in terms of whether the pad lugging will impact on someone's climbing (especially since the energy systems are likely to be different).

This is obviously an area of personal interest to me because I DO have a condition that makes carrying pads or indeed any loads uphill very difficult, but hasn't directly impinged my ability to climb much (secondary effects aside). Take, for example, stashing pads at Pots And Pans (not far but a pretty stiff slog). Carrying (3 small) pads up IS hard work for me, I get tired overall, I need more time to recover when I get there, it might well give me a bit of fatigue overall that affects my session, and it also can reduce my motivation and positivity towards climbing due to the constant (and unpleasant) reminder of my issues. Would I be justified in doing so??

Edit: Also now Droyd (post above) is tackling the real issues 

[petejh]

Trad racks and double ropes are heavy too. Perhaps you should just top rope 

[Fultonius]

Where's does this leave us with situations like one we witnessed a few years ago in Fairhead, where two absolute rockets had left a pad in-situ on Rathlin Effect. They also had a bottle of liquid chalk hung off a piece for mid-route reapplication.

[Moo]

Hopefully it leads to a sensible constructive conversation which leaves anyone reading it with points to consider regarding their context.

This is one of the best things about a forum like this. Experienced climbers can leave their opinion without mud slinging and anyone wanting to get an idea of what’s acceptable could stumble across it and benefit from that.

[GazM]

While I'm sympathetic to Droyd's point about different people's ability to get to the crag, one of the main things for me is how likely it is that someone is going to stumble on the pads and remove/steal/damage them.

Apparently last weekend someone's pad got nicked from Ruthven near Inverness. It had been left for a few hours while the owner was away at a different nearby crag, but Ruthven is a popular boulder right next to a path that walkers occasionally use, on a nature reserve. A few hours was long enough for either a well meaning walker to tidy it away or a cheeky bastard to nick it.

[dr_botnik]

A few hours was long enough for either a well meaning walker to tidy it away or a cheeky bastard to nick it.

Can anyone beat this time for swagging (or is that getting swagged) at a crag?

Once, I had a guidebook get mistakenly by another group in the time I spent on egg arete at cratcliffe

[Bradders]

in the time I spent on egg arete at cratcliffe

So 8 or 9 hours then based on my experience? 

Apparently last weekend someone's pad got nicked from Ruthven near Inverness. It had been left for a few hours while the owner was away at a different nearby crag, but Ruthven is a popular boulder right next to a path that walkers occasionally use, on a nature reserve. A few hours was long enough for either a well meaning walker to tidy it away or a cheeky bastard to nick it.

I saw this doing the rounds on Insta and thought the implication was that someone had taken it whilst the owner was present at the crag. If they just left it underneath the boulder then that's not stashed and it should be no surprise it was removed, although I'd have hoped the person who did would then try to return it.

Totally agree about their being out of sight when stashed. I mentioned discrete earlier and this is basically what I meant by that.

[SA Chris]

A few hours was long enough for either a well meaning walker to tidy it away or a cheeky bastard to nick it.

Can anyone beat this time for swagging (or is that getting swagged) at a crag?

Once, I had a guidebook get mistakenly by another group in the time I spent on egg arete at cratcliffe

I had an ab rope lifted from near the start of Exposure Explosion near Ogmore, in the time from starting to finishing the route (tbf it's quite a long route). It was a Marlow rope, as flexible as a cable, probably good it went.

[cheque]

I mentioned discrete earlier and this is basically what I meant by that.

Discreet then? 

[Bradders]

I mentioned discrete earlier and this is basically what I meant by that.

Discreet then? 

Ha well spotted.

[Fiend]

Where's does this leave us with situations like one we witnessed a few years ago in Fairhead, where two absolute rockets had left a pad in-situ on Rathlin Effect. They also had a bottle of liquid chalk hung off a piece for mid-route reapplication.

I'd say you've got to take the liquid chalk up with you. Pre-placed liquid chalk = no tick.

[Wellsy]

Stashing pads seems like a vaguely risky affair in terms of never seeing those pads again.

I will say that if a pad is stashed where no-one sees it or knows where it is, then I can't imagine I'd be that bothered. Could be one of the many and various thin ends of the wedge mind you.

[mrjonathanr]

If no one see that a pad is stashed in the forest, does it really exist?

[Fiend]

No video proof of pad-stashing, no green tick. Tippex out, back around, etc etc.

[Hoseyb]

I think this is sort of a closed subject in the states where the beasties are a little more active in pad destruction. A quick Google shows lots of 10/15 year old articles where pads have been strewn across the mountain like hobo confetti.

I've stashed a knackered pad before, and the paranoia that it'll get nicked/ destroyed has meant it's never been for long.

The serial stashers I know basically have too many pads to care

[SA Chris]

The great John Sherman story is on pg 60 here;

https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=Tp7eUBRn4M4C&pg=PA58&source=gbs_toc_r&cad=3#v=onepage&q&f=false

[Eddies]

Pad stashing is like stashing a bag of you dog's shite on-route to be collected on your way home.... It is still littering.
The person who discovers your stash doesn't know when you intend to return to it.

Stashing is not OK, in any form

[Alex-the-Alex]

The great John Sherman story is on pg 60 here;

https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=Tp7eUBRn4M4C&pg=PA58&source=gbs_toc_r&cad=3#v=onepage&q&f=false

I was just thinking of this!

I can see a sort of Predator meets whisky western set in glen pean with the Verm attempting to extract one final legendary haul of stashed pads whilst being stalked by the Great Carnivore, bare chested and hungry. "The Stash - pads won't save you now."

[scragrock]

Pad stashing is like stashing a bag of you dog's shite on-route to be collected on your way home.... It is still littering.
The person who discovers your stash doesn't know when you intend to return to it.

Stashing is not OK, in any form

This is a little bit black and white don't you think?

All my pads are stashed between 2 locations in dry hidden caves in new areas i am developing, i bike lock them in case any random might try and tidy/nick them{this is highly unlikely}.

My reason for doing so is a mix of time restriction, age, long term injury and lack of power/endurance to walk in {30 mins} with pads and gear to clean, then climb and walk out with them.

I am open to a debate on the ethics of this and a genuine fair and frank conversation would be appreciated.

Thanks

[abarro81]

I tend to think that leaving them somewhere that only climbers will go and they wont get ripped up by bears or whatever is pretty inoffensive, though I'm open to being convinced otherwise. Probably best removed at the end of any relevant "season". Saying stashing is never ok would need a bit more behind it to make me think it's sensible - if it's that non-climbers might find them I can think of a bunch of places where that is very unlikely...

[steveri]

I think this is sort of a closed subject in the states where the beasties are a little more active in pad destruction. A quick Google shows lots of 10/15 year old articles where pads have been strewn across the mountain like hobo confetti.

Curious what makes a stashed pad seem like a nutritious snack. Does it make a difference if the pad is imbued with the sweet taste of success, or the bitter taste of failure? Maybe it's an ethical thing.

[SA Chris]

if it's that non-climbers might find them I can think of a bunch of places where that is very unlikely...

I though my stash was infallible, in a cave in the side of an arch, with the approach involving mincing through a load of gorse then a downclimb needing a rope, but my pad was clearly discovered (assume by local kids) who I think tried to use it as grass sledge which ripped it open and tore off one of the loops. I guess I can be grateful they didn't finish off by throwing it in the sea.

[andy_e]

No, the sea did that for them

[SA Chris]

Those were different ones! You know where these pads were, definitely safe from even the roughest seas.