[spidermonkey09]

Minor rant but had a move a load of pads someone has stashed under the start of the terrace. Who can possibly think it's a good idea to stash pads there? It was also caked in chalk as if someone has been climbing it when damp.

Thats nonsense. Have them away if they're there next time and do a ukc/fb post to give them back. Not on stashing stuff like that.

[andy_e]

Had they been stashed, or just left there for a bit whilst the owners checked out whether anything else was dry etc.?

[kac]

Looked stashed to me. Some had a tarp over them. Anyway if you want to leave some pads while you check out the rest of the crag putting them in a stack underneath one of the most popular problems in the peak ain't a great idea

[andy_e]

Fair points!

[Fiend]

Free pads dude!

[SA Chris]

Yoink

[cheque]

Minor rant but had a move a load of pads someone has stashed under the start of the terrace.

  If you can sit under your project and watch kids riding their stabiliser-equipped bikes down a footpath then you do not need to stash your pads there.

[Duncan campbell]

Indeed. Mentally pathetic scenes

[Droyd]

Not having a go at anyone in particular here, but it’s interesting to me that the focus is on the fact that it’s Burbage rather than it being an unacceptable practice full-stop. I mean, I get that it’s quite a dumb thing to do given they’re more likely to get nicked, but I’m getting a whiff of a double standard. Loads of people who post on UKB visited Badger Cove this summer but I didn’t see a single mention of the eight or so pads stashed there, a couple of which were so far along the process of disintegration that I doubt they’d have survived being pulled back out of the cove via the rope. I’m sure the same situation occurs all over the UK at crags with tricky approaches, and it’s one of those things that loads of us know isn’t okay but, when we find them at the crag, we happily make use of them and don’t complain or suggest that they be removed.

I also think it’s worth pointing out that, while for the vast majority of the climbing population The Terrace is an easy ten-minute stroll, that’s not the case for absolutely everyone who climbs if you factor in things like disability and chronic fatigue. That’s not to say that I think stashing pads is ever acceptable, that you should get a pass if you have a condition that makes getting to the crag more difficult for you than it is for other people, or to get into some virtual-signalling SJW bollocks - I just think that criticising the stashing of pads at The Terrace specifically because of its ease of access from your perspective is a bit blinkered. Over the years I've climbed with multiple people who either wouldn't be able to get there or would find it difficult, and while that doesn't mean that they'd be within their rights to stash pads there to facilitate their climbing, I do think that them doing so wouldn’t be any more of a “mentally pathetic scene” than someone stashing pads at a mountain crag or a sea cliff (or while putting up an 8C+ at a crag that is probably the same distance from the road as The Terrace but just happens to have a pain-in-the-arse descent and require a lot of pads).

Either stashing pads is never, ever acceptable and there’s no difference between leaving them in the middle of the street or half-way up a mountain or at the bottom of a sea-cliff, or there are degrees of acceptability based on how ‘hard’ a problem is to get to and how many pads are needed – in which case who decides what’s hard enough?

[sherlock]

Good post Droyd.

[kac]

Droyd I was pissed off cos I had to piss about moving the mats before I could try a problem I wanted to try. I don't have long when I get out these days. Proximity and popularity are relevant as to how inconsiderate it is leaving stuff like this because its pretty inevitable someone would want to try the problem. I don't think this is the best place for a general debate but I'd suggest there is a difference between leaving pads where no one is likely to see them and leaving them where it is inevitable that they will see them and they will also be in the way.

[cheque]

Either stashing pads is never, ever acceptable and there’s no difference between leaving them in the middle of the street or half-way up a mountain or at the bottom of a sea-cliff, or there are degrees of acceptability based on how ‘hard’ a problem is to get to and how many pads are needed

I’ve never formulated an opinion on what situations I’m pro- or anti-pad stashing in but if I have to pick one extreme or the other then I’m definitely going for the first one. I think we should take our climbing gear home with us. It’s what I’ve always done even when I couldn’t walk very well. The harder you’re climbing the less of an excuse you’ve got.

[danm]

I don't even understand why this is a conversation, as it fits the general behaviour pattern of "it's fine to be a bit cheeky but don't get caught." If it really pisses you off, next time tuck something organic inside the foam. With any luck the pad will be savaged by hungry animals and if not it'll soon stink so badly it'll be hilarious.

[Moo]

Can we split this topic please ?

I think there's a discussion to be had here as clearly stashed things are a thing which happens whether some people like it or not. As I rule I'd say low traffic esoteric areas are fine to stash things at as long as you are considerate and discrete about it, but that's just my two pennies on the subject.

[Fiend]

I agree with a topic split as I think it's a worthy and sensible discussion to have.

My initial thought is: Best avoided in general, but the stringency of that should depend on both the awkwardness of the approach (i.e. the value of stashing) and the likelihood of the stash being discovered and/or the sensitivity of the area (i.e. the detriment of stashing).

The harder you’re climbing the less of an excuse you’ve got.

Why is that?? It's possible, although rare, to have quite a discrepancy between the ability to approach a crag, and the ability to climb up it - especially with bouldering. Was it Matt Clifford who had ME and managed to do The Swarm in the Buttermilks? I suspect that's the sort of scenario where lugging pads in for a while could be debilitating, compared to 1 minute of anaerobic cranking with long rests in between.

[Bradders]

The harder you’re climbing the less of an excuse you’ve got.

Why is that?? It's possible, although rare, to have quite a discrepancy between the ability to approach a crag, and the ability to climb up it - especially with bouldering. Was it Matt Clifford who had ME and managed to do The Swarm in the Buttermilks? I suspect that's the sort of scenario where lugging pads in for a while could be debilitating, compared to 1 minute of anaerobic cranking with long rests in between.

Agree. For instance there was a pad stash up at the Lad Stones for ages which was incredibly useful for a lone visitor working on a difficult problem, given the length and steepness of the walk.

Personally I've never stashed pads more than overnight but generally I'm fine with it if it's discrete and "reasonable", the latter being very subjective. Popping them under The Terrace; to me, not reasonable in the slightest for any length of time. Lad Stones; far more reasonable. I'm not sure how much closer to the road Lad Stones would have to be to make it unreasonable though 

There was a discussion on here / UKC a while ago after someone stashed an Organic Blubber at the Bowderstone; now that was pathetic.

[Bonjoy]

Not having a go at anyone in particular here, but it’s interesting to me that the focus is on the fact that it’s Burbage rather than it being an unacceptable practice full-stop. I mean, I get that it’s quite a dumb thing to do given they’re more likely to get nicked, but I’m getting a whiff of a double standard. Loads of people who post on UKB visited Badger Cove this summer but I didn’t see a single mention of the eight or so pads stashed there, a couple of which were so far along the process of disintegration that I doubt they’d have survived being pulled back out of the cove via the rope. I’m sure the same situation occurs all over the UK at crags with tricky approaches, and it’s one of those things that loads of us know isn’t okay but, when we find them at the crag, we happily make use of them and don’t complain or suggest that they be removed.

I also think it’s worth pointing out that, while for the vast majority of the climbing population The Terrace is an easy ten-minute stroll, that’s not the case for absolutely everyone who climbs if you factor in things like disability and chronic fatigue. That’s not to say that I think stashing pads is ever acceptable, that you should get a pass if you have a condition that makes getting to the crag more difficult for you than it is for other people, or to get into some virtual-signalling SJW bollocks - I just think that criticising the stashing of pads at The Terrace specifically because of its ease of access from your perspective is a bit blinkered. Over the years I've climbed with multiple people who either wouldn't be able to get there or would find it difficult, and while that doesn't mean that they'd be within their rights to stash pads there to facilitate their climbing, I do think that them doing so wouldn’t be any more of a “mentally pathetic scene” than someone stashing pads at a mountain crag or a sea cliff (or while putting up an 8C+ at a crag that is probably the same distance from the road as The Terrace but just happens to have a pain-in-the-arse descent and require a lot of pads).

Either stashing pads is never, ever acceptable and there’s no difference between leaving them in the middle of the street or half-way up a mountain or at the bottom of a sea-cliff, or there are degrees of acceptability based on how ‘hard’ a problem is to get to and how many pads are needed – in which case who decides what’s hard enough?

That seems a false dichotomy to me. The hardness of the climbing is only tangentially relevant, in so far as harder climbs often require more pads in order to be safely attempted.
The pads aren't at Badger Cove because the climbs are hard per se, they're there because the probs typically requiring the most visits to complete also need a large number of pads and the approach is fairly horrendous, even with one pad. I'm not sure that a lone climber ferrying back and forth repeatedly across the crumbling slope day after day is a more crag friendly solution, at a place so inaccessible that it is really only visited by climbers. On balance it looks like a pragmatic solution unlikely to offend anyone, except other climbers.
However, not taking them away at the end of the season, or even when they're disintegrating, that is clearly out of order. Whoever put them there needs to go back and sort it out.

[andy moles]

I'm struggling to roll with the argument that stashing pads is never OK.

[El Mocho]

Was it Matt Clifford who had ME and managed to do The Swarm in the Buttermilks?

It's Matt Birch you are thinking of.

Matt Clifford - a cross between Matt Birch and Tim Clifford (ie Shy Yorkshireman 1 and 2) = UKs best boulderer.

[Droyd]

That seems a false dichotomy to me. The hardness of the climbing is only tangentially relevant, in so far as harder climbs often require more pads in order to be safely attempted.

Sorry, poor wording on my part – I meant how hard getting the requisite number of pads to the base of the boulder problem is, which you could calculate based on the difficulty of the approach, how many pads are needed, and how many people there are to carry pads. My issue with that as a criterion for pad-stashing acceptability is that what one person considers a gruelling slog is another’s breezy jaunt in terms of both perspective (a boulderer based in the Lakes is going to have a different idea of an easy walk-in to a Peak lime connoisseur) and physical ability (if the consensus is that the Lad Stones is generally an acceptable place to stash pads and I find The Terrace as difficult to get to as other people find the Lad Stones, then why shouldn’t I stash pads at The Terrace in the interest of fairness?), so where the line is drawn varies between individuals. Badger Cove definitely qualifies as a pain in the arse for the lone boulderer, but with one person at the top and one at the bottom and a length of rope, getting pads from the car to the problems and back is a ten-minute walk-in and a tedious lowering/hauling-up job. Personally I don’t see that as all that bad even in the context of two average climbers going there for the day; in the context of a professional climber projecting something over an extended period and doing so with an entourage of spotters and videographers, stashing feels to me like putting convenience above all else.

Interestingly, my assumption when I replied was that most people were in agreement that stashing wasn’t on, hence why I took that as a starting point. I think that that was based on extrapolation from the US (where consensus seems to be ‘not okay’ for both ecological and land-owner reasons) and the thread on UKC a year or so back about a guy whose stashed pads were nicked from Wharncliffe and most of the responses were very anti-stashing. Admittedly it does seem a bit weird in hindsight to be intuiting consensus on bouldering ethics based on a UKC thread given most of the people on that thread championing the ‘leave no trace’ ethic likely take that to the nth degree by stopping climbing altogether…

Good to see some different takes on the topic, at any rate. It’s interesting to me that arguments for it being situationally acceptable are contingent on pads being well-hidden from other people – while that means that a) they won’t get stolen by climbers or be in their way and b) non-climbers won’t see them and think that they’re rubbish, potentially leading to access issues if landowners find out, it doesn’t address the (to my mind much bigger) ecological issues, in terms of leaving an object that small mammals will gnaw on and get sick as a result of and the fact that intention to come back doesn’t always reflect what happens. I recall a post on here where someone talked about leaving their pad in a sea cave for a short while, life getting in the way, and a storm taking it. You also have the fact that the more acceptable a practice like that gets the more people start to push the envelope in terms of leaving pads for longer, which could get to the point where the final stage of the lifetime of a pad isn’t under a board in a cellar but a permanent, disintegrating feature of a cave somewhere. I suspect that that’s at least started to go on at Badger Cove this summer based on the fact that one of the pads was leaking foam, but haven’t been back to check since late August. On a tangential note I came across a stash of pads at a somewhat obscure Peak lime venue while out on a recce last winter that were presumably left for the duration based on the fact that as far as I understand it the crag only dries out in the summer, and have since heard that stash referred to as ‘reliable’ and one of the benefits of going there.

Ultimately, the argument for stashing is entirely contingent on a vanishingly small minority of people doing it and doing it well (taking care to hide pads, covering them with a tarp, not taking the piss), but that starts to fall apart if either a greater percentage of climbers start doing it or the climbing population increases and the percentage stays the same. More people stashing pads means more pads to be chewed by rodents and found by walkers and landowners; it also means more climbers who weren’t aware of the practice stumbling on stashed pads and becoming aware and doing it themselves, but maybe not doing it quite so carefully or doing it at less ‘acceptable’ crags. To an extent that’s a nonsense thick-end-of-the-wedge argument, but at the same time we’re having this discussion because someone came across what looked like stashed pads at Burbage North…

[Fiend]

Was it Matt Clifford who had ME and managed to do The Swarm in the Buttermilks?

It's Matt Birch you are thinking of.

Matt Clifford - a cross between Matt Birch and Tim Clifford (ie Shy Yorkshireman 1 and 2) = UKs best boulderer.

Well hey I was on the right lines....

What about Tim Birch though? Or is he a complete punt?....

[duncan]

There was a discussion on here / UKC a while ago after someone stashed an Organic Blubber at the Bowderstone; now that was pathetic.

The previous thread: Stashing Pads.

[Fiend]

But THIS current topic is Pad Stashing, not Stashing Pads  A much more advanced stage in the discussion.

[cheque]

The harder you’re climbing the less of an excuse you’ve got.

Why is that?? It's possible, although rare, to have quite a discrepancy between the ability to approach a crag, and the ability to climb up it - especially with bouldering. Was it Matt Clifford who had ME and managed to do The Swarm in the Buttermilks? I suspect that's the sort of scenario where lugging pads in for a while could be debilitating, compared to 1 minute of anaerobic cranking with long rests in between.

I guess because if you’re climbing big grades you’re meant to be hard, not bringing the things you climb down to your level using tactics that less elite climbers wouldn’t consider. Would you be cool with people stashing pads if they were going to use them for the start of a trad route that they intended to report online using an E grade? 

Really it’s a big grey area and I agree 100% with this

I'm struggling to roll with the argument that stashing pads is never OK.

but Droyd said we have to pick a side for some reason so I was outlining which side I’d pick.

I still think the idea of stashing pads at Burbage is funny but if it turns out they were stashed by someone who has a condition that prevents them carrying pads and climbing on the same day then I’ll apologise and feel like a dick.

[remus]

It seems to me that most of the issues arise when pads are stashed for an extended period of time (they get chewed by wildlife, found by walkers, stolen etc.) Perhaps the focus should be on encouraging people to minimise the length of time pads are stashed for? Having said that I guess we just end up in the same place when you try and work out how long is acceptable.