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Qatar World Cup (Read 20004 times)

SA Chris

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#100 Re: Qatar World Cup
December 07, 2022, 08:30:42 am
Morocco, despite having a lot less of the ball, seemed worth at least a draw

Plus some remarkable goalkeeping in the penalties. Big man, moves fast.

lukeyboy

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#101 Re: Qatar World Cup
December 07, 2022, 09:36:49 am
As for France, they lost to Tunisia. So clearly not that superior.

Very much not a full strength team (they were already through) and maybe lacking in commitment as well.

This from the Guardian live reporting made me laugh:

'France are currently playing like a tribute act to the normal starting XI. Very much the Friday night at a working men’s club version of Mbappe et al. I am not sure you could charge entry.'

Good quote  :lol:

True about France not being a full strength team in that game, but I think that's an important point - once you get past their starting 11 the quality really plummets, leaving them not many options for substitutes to make an impact late in the game, or rotation to avoid players becoming injured or fatigued. This is typically key to success in a tournament.

On a separate note, it looks like we are seeing the last of Ronaldo. Portugal looked vastly improved without him. Hats off to the manager for taking the risk of not starting him, glad it paid off.

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#102 Re: Qatar World Cup
December 07, 2022, 09:52:54 am
Morocco, despite having a lot less of the ball, seemed worth at least a draw

Plus some remarkable goalkeeping in the penalties. Big man, moves fast.

As one of the match reports I read said, it's odd really that they're seen as such underdogs, given that many of their players play with top European teams.

SA Chris

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#103 Re: Qatar World Cup
December 07, 2022, 10:05:58 am
My thought too, when my son (Statto Jr) started reeling off who they all play for.

Ged

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#104 Re: Qatar World Cup
December 07, 2022, 10:20:08 am
As for France, they lost to Tunisia. So clearly not that superior.

Very much not a full strength team (they were already through) and maybe lacking in commitment as well.

This from the Guardian live reporting made me laugh:

'France are currently playing like a tribute act to the normal starting XI. Very much the Friday night at a working men’s club version of Mbappe et al. I am not sure you could charge entry.'

Good quote  :lol:

True about France not being a full strength team in that game, but I think that's an important point - once you get past their starting 11 the quality really plummets, leaving them not many options for substitutes to make an impact late in the game, or rotation to avoid players becoming injured or fatigued. This is typically key to success in a tournament.

And they did bring on the big guns in the second half to no avail

teestub

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#105 Re: Qatar World Cup
December 07, 2022, 10:23:13 am
How many posts about the football is it ok to have before a reminder about the corruption and death is required; or are we on to the “enjoying the sausage without thinking about what’s in it” stage? 😄

Ged

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#106 Re: Qatar World Cup
December 07, 2022, 10:37:54 am
How many posts about the football is it ok to have before a reminder about the corruption and death is required; or are we on to the “enjoying the sausage without thinking about what’s in it” stage? 😄

Yeah I think we're onto "well the plane would've flown to Thailand even if I hadn't bought a ticket" stage.

SA Chris

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#107 Re: Qatar World Cup
December 07, 2022, 10:40:52 am
yeah we know. As per before, Qatar was never on many people's holiday destinations, but I think issues highlighted during this WC have hopefully dropped it down the list of anyone who had considered it.

cheque

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#108 Re: Qatar World Cup
December 07, 2022, 11:08:53 am
I’m happy to be reminded at any stage personally. Watching the matches hasn’t made me forget anything I’ve learnt about the circumstances of this World Cup over the last 12 years or stopped me  following non-football events happening around it since it kicked off though.

gme

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#109 Re: Qatar World Cup
December 07, 2022, 11:20:22 am
There was an interesting piece on R5 this morning about Qatar "sports washing" where the reporter suggested it isnt sports washing at all as he feels they have not kowtowed to the rest of the world at all and pretty much said fuck you, this is our country, this is what we do and if you dont like it fuck off.

What they have proved is that they are very rich and very good at organising things, with the event, the stadia, infrastructure and service for the event being exceptional. Loads of reports about it being the best experience of a WC many fans have had, especially women who appear to like the fact that its not full of pissed up blokes.

Sports washing suggests trying to clean something or hide it and in this case they don't actually appear to be doing that.

cheque

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#110 Re: Qatar World Cup
December 07, 2022, 01:01:56 pm
I think “soft power” is a better term for what Qatar are seeking to gain from hosting. It’s in their interests as a small state surrounded by bigger ones that don’t like them to be visible to the world in a favourable light.

In terms of Qatar being a nice place to visit I don’t think that was ever in doubt. It’s a country where the rich have a very nice time and it’s been a popular holiday destination for a certain type of holidaymaker (pro footballers and managers being squarely in that group) for a long time because of that. The problem is that behind the scenes the comfort is enabled pretty much by slavery and it’s very easy and in fact quite difficult to look behind said scenes when you’re there enjoying it.

remus

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#111 Re: Qatar World Cup
December 07, 2022, 04:26:54 pm
What they have proved is that they are very rich and very good at organising things, with the event, the stadia, infrastructure and service for the event being exceptional. Loads of reports about it being the best experience of a WC many fans have had, especially women who appear to like the fact that its not full of pissed up blokes.

You'd hope so given that they're reportedly spent $220 billion on it (including supporting infrastructure), which is 5x more than the previous 7 world cups combined.

https://www.dw.com/en/qatar-world-cup-will-be-the-most-expensive-of-all-time/a-63681083

gme

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#112 Re: Qatar World Cup
December 07, 2022, 09:22:25 pm
The money is pretty much irrelevant to them though. Think they made 20- 30 billion extra in last year due to gas price rises so we have all paid for it anyway.

TobyD

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#113 Re: Qatar World Cup
December 08, 2022, 10:01:18 am
The money is pretty much irrelevant to them though. Think they made 20- 30 billion extra in last year due to gas price rises so we have all paid for it anyway.

True, money is literally no object to the Qataris. I believe that they are considering a bid to host the Olympics,  and they probably have a chance given how many countries just can't afford it now. They probably also want to develop an economy which will survive a post (or very reduced) fossil fuel using world.

Qatar remains a country that I have no interest in visiting, but I've listened to the opinions on engaging with them, or on boycotting them. I think that I now accept that boycotts mostly haven't worked in the past,  and that there is no moral consistency between boycotting Qatar,  but watching the next world cup in the US,  given the number of their laws that are pretty unpleasant as well.  (Guns, abortion...). Qatar has come under the spotlight on women's and LGBQT issues and,  though there may be no immediate change,  it might have a positive influence. 

Johnny Brown

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#114 Re: Qatar World Cup
December 08, 2022, 10:50:41 am
Quote
the best experience of a WC many fans have had, especially women who appear to like the fact that its not full of pissed up blokes

Can't believe you've not been pulled up on this, I was told it was:

Quote
...a very clumsy take on football in the UK (to be polite)... a small number of football fans, far far away from a "majority"

On the plus side apart from the school debacle it's been easy enough to forget it's happening.

Yossarian

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#115 Re: Qatar World Cup
December 08, 2022, 11:02:41 am


On the contrary - I think climbing could learn a lot from football and the way it generously accommodates a full spectrum of joyfully uninhibited celebration of success.

I now know unequivocally how I’ll be honouring the occasion when Aidan climbs Burden of Dreams…

edshakey

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#116 Re: Qatar World Cup
December 08, 2022, 12:19:32 pm
Quote
the best experience of a WC many fans have had, especially women who appear to like the fact that its not full of pissed up blokes

Can't believe you've not been pulled up on this, I was told it was:

Quote
...a very clumsy take on football in the UK (to be polite)... a small number of football fans, far far away from a "majority"

On the plus side apart from the school debacle it's been easy enough to forget it's happening.

Fair enough, happy to take responsibility for that second quote - although I hadn't yet read that post re. pissed up blokes.

I've not been following overly closely what fans have been saying about this world cup experience vs previous ones. However, from what I have seen, the reason for enjoyment of this world cup seems to be a range of factors, including easy public transit, low petty crime rates, etc. But there has been less (violent) trouble than at other world cups, so I'm guess it is making a difference to some people.

On the other hand, the number of violent fans in football, and specifically at world cups, is still a minority. Yes it occurs, and involves a few hundred fans, but hundreds of thousands of fans attend these tournaments. I would argue that if you asked fans at previous tournaments how safe they felt, a lot more would have quoted pickpockets and muggings (ie. not football related issues) as things that made them feel unsafe, compared to those who would cite fan trouble.
I imagine people would still be saying it was their best experience at a world cup, for other reasons, even if there was the usual level of fan trouble.

So yes, less fan trouble is good for everyone. I have no issue with addressing it when it occurs, as it is unacceptable. But don't paint everyone with the same brush - to directly address the original quote: football is never "full of pissed up blokes". They just steal the headlines ;)

teestub

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#117 Re: Qatar World Cup
December 08, 2022, 12:32:23 pm
there is no moral consistency between boycotting Qatar,  but watching the next world cup in the US,  given the number of their laws that are pretty unpleasant as well.  (Guns, abortion...).

Wow that’s a pretty hefty false equivalence there Toby!

JamieG

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#118 Re: Qatar World Cup
December 08, 2022, 07:29:03 pm
How many posts about the football is it ok to have before a reminder about the corruption and death is required; or are we on to the “enjoying the sausage without thinking about what’s in it” stage? 😄

I'm definitely in this camp. I didn't watch a single group stage game, but did find myself checking the scores every evening. Then it got to the knock out stages and I couldn't hack it anymore. I was basically sitting reading bbc live reports as goals etc were coming in and getting all psyched on what was happening. So I just caved and turned it on. I feel dirty but happy.

As for France vs England: Despite being Scottish I would like England to do well, since I like the players and the manager, but I do worry about the pace of of the French attack. Senegal clearly were trying to target Harry Maguire for pace and I suspect the French will do the same but with a world class striker.

lukeyboy

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#119 Re: Qatar World Cup
December 08, 2022, 07:33:30 pm
Quote
the best experience of a WC many fans have had, especially women who appear to like the fact that its not full of pissed up blokes

Can't believe you've not been pulled up on this, I was told it was:

Quote
...a very clumsy take on football in the UK (to be polite)... a small number of football fans, far far away from a "majority"

On the plus side apart from the school debacle it's been easy enough to forget it's happening.

Fair enough, happy to take responsibility for that second quote - although I hadn't yet read that post re. pissed up blokes.

I've not been following overly closely what fans have been saying about this world cup experience vs previous ones. However, from what I have seen, the reason for enjoyment of this world cup seems to be a range of factors, including easy public transit, low petty crime rates, etc. But there has been less (violent) trouble than at other world cups, so I'm guess it is making a difference to some people.

On the other hand, the number of violent fans in football, and specifically at world cups, is still a minority. Yes it occurs, and involves a few hundred fans, but hundreds of thousands of fans attend these tournaments. I would argue that if you asked fans at previous tournaments how safe they felt, a lot more would have quoted pickpockets and muggings (ie. not football related issues) as things that made them feel unsafe, compared to those who would cite fan trouble.
I imagine people would still be saying it was their best experience at a world cup, for other reasons, even if there was the usual level of fan trouble.

So yes, less fan trouble is good for everyone. I have no issue with addressing it when it occurs, as it is unacceptable. But don't paint everyone with the same brush - to directly address the original quote: football is never "full of pissed up blokes". They just steal the headlines ;)

I agree with what you say about fans feeling safer and no booze making it feel friendlier to some. However, watching the games the (not particularly big) stadiums have often been part-full and commentators have frequently mentioned the lack of atmosphere. That's a big issue to fans, though to be fair it's improved as the tournament has gotten to the knockout stages (e.g. the Senegalese fans were great). It's a noticeable contrast to what you'd get in almost any other WC.

The large number of fans with valid tickets who were stuck outside stadiums and missed parts of games due to the app not working would also probably disagree with the claim of it being the best WC experience.

gme

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#120 Re: Qatar World Cup
December 08, 2022, 09:35:50 pm
Think the app issue was one game or a couple and nothing compared to the issues at euro final or champions league mess in Paris.

Not sticking up to Qatar it should never have been there but they have put on a good World Cup to the point I would suggest fifa will be happy to go to one of the other gulf states in a few years.

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#121 Re: Qatar World Cup
December 08, 2022, 09:49:17 pm
Think the app issue was one game or a couple and nothing compared to the issues at euro final or champions league mess in Paris.

Yes very true.

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#122 Re: Qatar World Cup
December 08, 2022, 10:47:13 pm
I think it's pretty hard to argue it hasn't been an organisational and logistical success. Im sure the teams love that they don't have to move hotels all the time too.

Something I have thought which may prove to be a longer term benefit is the decentring of European football which occurs by holding it away from the normal footballing seats of power. I think the effect of pretty clear in the Morocco Spain game, with absolutely massive support for Morocco from the Arab and African fans in a way that simply wouldn't have happened had it been elsewhere. Also visible in the Saudis defeat of Argentina (still can't believe that happened). This provincialisation of European football is desperately needed; eg pundits didn't praise Japan at all after their victory over Spain and instead spent 15 minutes making thinly disguised accusations of a VAR stitch up!

Think the last time the WC functioned as outreach in this way was probably 2002 in South Korea and they now consistently reach the knockout stages, and Japan are handy too. Suspect this may do similarly for (North) African and Middle Eastern teams.

TobyD

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#123 Re: Qatar World Cup
December 09, 2022, 07:24:22 am
there is no moral consistency between boycotting Qatar,  but watching the next world cup in the US,  given the number of their laws that are pretty unpleasant as well.  (Guns, abortion...).

Wow that’s a pretty hefty false equivalence there Toby!

You think so? It wasn't that I was saying Qatar's laws are only as bad as the US, as that's obviously not true; in retrospect I apologize that's how it looks. But it seems a bit hypocritical to accept awful legislation in one place but not another, though one may be worse.

SA Chris

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#124 Re: Qatar World Cup
December 09, 2022, 08:14:42 am
Think the last time the WC functioned as outreach in this way was probably 2002 in South Korea and they now consistently reach the knockout stages, and Japan are handy too.

South Africa 2010? Shame the national team haven't managed to do much recently.

 

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