I've been using a Decathlon/Simond 8.9mm for a while, both with an older grigri 2 and now with the current grigri (3), and never noticed any odd behaviour. Haven't watched that video yet though.
I use the same rope with a grigri 1. It's slippy when the rope is new but fine after a couple of days use to break the rope in (i.e. grinding a lot of dirt and shit in to it).
Unlike the situation (and subsequent tests) in the video you’ve probably been holding onto the brake side of the rope.
Which alternatives have you tried?
I still remain unconvinced that the GG has been bettered especially when you consider all of the other things you can do with it. We bought a Cinch which was great (and is a really good backup when ascending a fixed line as it self feeds) but did need a totally different technique and you couldn't just pass it to someone and expect they'd be familiar with it.
My perception is that Gri Gri's get a lot of bad press, but I'm not sure whether more accidents are attributable to Gri Gris or normal belay plates. I would have thought that the auto locking feature - albeit flawed etc - must prevent some accidents that otherwise would occur from using standard belay plates. Are there any stats anywhere?
I’ve got a treated 8.9mm (edelrid eco dry swift) and it’s been a bit too slick for comfort and worried there might be potential for this sort of thing
Personally I can’t be bothered learning another locking belay device but I’m happy to be belayed by people using their own choice because I only climb with people who I trust.I think that YouTube video illustrates the problem with people’s attitudes to GriGris- they’re acting like it’s a scandal that it doesn’t lock without human intervention with a skinny, shiny rope. You should of course always be taking the responsibility of belaying seriously enough to hold onto the fucking brake side of the rope regardless of the device you’re using and especially if your rope is the trickiest type to belay with.
Other than you Cinch, what belay devices have you tried out to test your hypothesis?
Quote from: Will Hunt on November 11, 2022, 12:26:58 pmOther than you Cinch, what belay devices have you tried out to test your hypothesis?Loads? I used to work in a gear shop (and in the wall where I saw plenty of lemming like behaviour).
Why does a Birdie not having any plastic feature in your thinking?
Dare I say that you worked in a gear shop a long time ago?
Probably before many of the alternatives were available. And the alternatives that you saw were messed about with in the shop, not at the crag?
I know you're a GriGri fundamentalist but some of the alternatives do now equal it in terms of performance if they're used properly.Josh Ibbertson noticed that I was using a Birdie and asked how I was finding it. I said it was good and he replied that he was very happy with his and wouldn't go back to a GriGri. I did question whether he might be saying this because he got the device from his sponsor but he maintained that this didn't influence his opinion. Eder said the same I think. Personally I think the GriGri and the Birdie are just about on a par. With the GriGri it is a bit harder to pay out slack; the Birdie is not as good when lowering. However, the Birdie feels nicer in the hand, hasn't got any plastic, and (most importantly) was about £10 cheaper when I bought it.
However, the Birdie feels nicer in the hand
Josh Ibbertson noticed that I was using a Birdie and asked how I was finding it.
he trainees were suffering something known in the trade as uncontrolled descents.
We bought a Cinch which was great (and is a really good backup when ascending a fixed line as it self feeds) but did need a totally different technique and you couldn't just pass it to someone and expect they'd be familiar with it.
Tl:dr: Grigris don't kill people, belayers do
The device requires tension in the rope to engage the cam, so if this tension isn't present or is low enough, you won't engage the braking assistance.
I don’t agree with that interpretation. The device works on friction between rope and cam. The faster the rope is moving the more potential it has to engage the cam, if it touches it. The problem is holding the rope and device, as in the video, where the rope isn’t touching the cam sufficiently. Acceleration does have a role, in that it is more likely to disturb the path of the rope out of a poor position, but it’s not acceleration that engages the cam, it’s friction. Hence why in the vid the cam does engage eventually.Unlike drag in air or water, solid-on-solid friction does not simply increase with speed, so the critical thing is the quality of the contact between the rope and the cam. Hence why a slow pull will engage the cam if things are in contact, but a fast one may not. But we tend to get in the habit of trying to minimise the contact for clipping. When I tested Shunts as used for fall arrest in shunting or rope access back up, we found the behaviour at low speed was not representative of that at falling speeds, where the device required a higher load to start slipping than it did to continue slipping. But grigris don’t slip once engaged in my experience.
Just hold onto the rope
"Keep a hand on the brake rope"However, from now on, I'll be using the finger under the lip method and 3 fingers on brake rope. , but only for that moment they need quick slack.
I think many accidents/near misses are essentially a result of people who treat belaying as a break between their own activity.
"Keep a hand on the brake rope"Yes, obv.. but isn't that the issue? (I certainly find it a problem), that its hard to quickly pay out slack without using the thumb on cam method, which entails not having your hand properly on the brake rope.
This is what Petzl recommend.
I think the danger with the forefinger under device method is that under stress, we grab, and it’s possible to clamp the cam open in this position as thumb and finger are opposed.A finger under the flange is offset from the thumb on an insecure feature to hold. It’s unlikely you’d exert enough force to keep the cam open in a fall this way.
I was belaying with a Grigri yesterday and adapted to the finger under lip position - not only lower risk of 'panic clamping', but actually more comfortable than finger under device as well. Can't believe I'd missed this being pointed out before.