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Topic split - Bohemian, Saxon and Czechia sandstone bolting (Read 3468 times)

Will Hunt

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Adam Ondra with Tomáš Sobotka climbs Alles Frei on a project in Labské údolí, Czechia. Amazing video, of course.

Does anybody know how this was bolted? They mention that everything is tried ground up. Have they placed the bolts on lead/aid? There seem to be some bolts in the videos that have been clipped with two draws?

jwi

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On Bohemian & Saxon sandstone all routes are supposed to be bolted ground up. In Czechia, if they cannot get a hook or a thin sling around holds to stick, they usually use guide holes either hand drilled or by using a small power drill, and put in a rivet then hand drill the absolutely giganormous bolts they use hanging from it. You can clearly see a drill bit in Ondras chalkbag when he tops out.

I am not sure they are allowed guide holes in Saxony.

When I climbed there I usually clipped every bolt with two opposing draws. On all routes I did, if one draw blows or unclip itself and you fall you die for sure.

The process of a first ascent in Bohemia is quite apparent in this (quality) video
https://youtu.be/JZvhIlzV8Ec?t=964
Start at about 16 min if you want to just view the FA process

Will Hunt

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Thanks, jwi. And great link. Looks mad/brilliant.

duncan

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There's a tied-off something just over the lip, visible around 6' 53". A rivet? Neither of them clip it.

jwi

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There's a tied-off something just over the lip, visible around 6' 53". A rivet? Neither of them clip it.

I think it is a drill bit/rivet combo for sandstone.

SA Chris

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I seem to remember from one of the other vids from that area that the rivet is placed to hang on while you place a lead bolt. AO said is mate planned on placing a lead bolt, but never got round to it, s guess it's from that?

Edit - missed jwi's earlier post and link.

T_B

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Doesn’t he clip a more normal bolt earlier on?

Not sure where this area is but I’ve climbed around Decin and the bolts are spaced, but it isn’t like Ardspach/Teplice where they’re massive rings. Pretty sure the Decin area bolts are also placed on lead off hooks or whatever.

Nice little film. Makes me want to go back.

webbo

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It must be one of the less hardcore areas as he’s using chalk.

jwi

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In Czechia chalk is kind-of accepted on routes that are not historical. Do not quote me on this.

In Germany chalk is illegal in Elbsandsteingebirge. They pretend it is because MgCO3 deteriorate sandstone, but it is clearly because it makes climbing easier.

Will Hunt

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In Czechia chalk is kind-of accepted on routes that are not historical. Do not quote me on this.

In Germany chalk is illegal in Elbsandsteingebirge. They pretend it is because MgCO3 deteriorate sandstone, but it is clearly because it makes climbing easier.

All hail these Ethical Thought Leaders.

grimer

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I've been there (Dolni Zleb) and the bolting seemed at least almost standard.

cwaddy

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I put in a couple of bolts in a route at a crag called Cross hill, near Teplice.  My Czech friend gave me a tiny sharpened hollow tube and a piece of bluetack. The idea was to stick it to the wall, and IIRC, tap it in a little then hit it properly no more than seven times. I think the idea was to preserve the drill which was  sharp but very brittle. I hit it more times than that... You then tied it off with a tiny bit of cord, 2mm or so, and clip into that,  and then put in another 8mm tube drill, but this time it goes in maybe 2 inches. Then, if you are eastern European, you should be completely happy. Can't say I was though. I think I may have put in another one. There are also rules about how far off the ground and how far apart the bolts should be, and if you don't find a knot to sit on then you have to do it all off a hook or one handed.   Now finally you haul up the big hammer and drill and knock that in for about a foot or so then pound in a massive ring bolt with lead packed around it.  All good till the next one.

To be clear I think there were some knots in various cracks in places, which I think maybe the locals might have trusted enough to reduced the number of bolts. Still makes my heart race thinking back.

jwi

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To be clear I think there were some knots in various cracks in places, which I think maybe the locals might have trusted enough to reduced the number of bolts. Still makes my heart race thinking back.

Regarding knots, I was deeply distrustful of anything that was not an absolutely keyhole slot. Slings around chockstones or sanduhren are obviously ok.

This video basically confirms my suspicions


And yeah, obviously you can not shunt a route and call it an ascent.

cheque

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They have these things called UFOs now apparently which are like big hexes made from webbing and sticky rubber. I just learnt from the website that in some areas you’re not even allowed to use the rubber versions though  :lol:


jwi

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they had them ten years ago as well. A friend bought one and we tried it and they seem to actually work as pro, so people are naturally quite upset about them.

OTOH, the cracks in Indian Creek, which has slightly harder sandstone, are getting wider every year. Nothing stays hard very long as thin cracks sooner or later admits fingers. A friend told me that you can get blue camalots to fit in Incredible Handcrack now!

jwi

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(I am also enjoying the confusion about the style and grade on the stuff that Ondra did. I have seen it reported as "redpoint" and "8b" when it is clearly neither.)

mrjonathanr

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The process of a first ascent in Bohemia is quite apparent in this (quality) video
https://youtu.be/JZvhIlzV8Ec?t=964
Start at about 16 min if you want to just view the FA process
Love watching that vid again. Somewhere in between mad, balls-out lunacy and complete craftsmanship.

Muenchener

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They have these things called UFOs now apparently which are like big hexes made from webbing and sticky rubber. I just learnt from the website that in some areas you’re not even allowed to use the rubber versions though  :lol:

As I understand it rubber is forbidden on the Saxon side but ok in Czechia

kelvin

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They have these things called UFOs now apparently which are like big hexes made from webbing and sticky rubber. I just learnt from the website that in some areas you’re not even allowed to use the rubber versions though  :lol:

UFOs are great - I've climbed on them in Spain, a German friend had just bought a set when they first came out.

cheque

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Did you fall off?

duncan

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I regret not going when I was young and bold but, assuming I'm neither, where would be a good place to sample Czech or Dresden sandstone?

Paul B

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I went to Labske. It wasn't really my thing (which probably explains why Nic S and T_B enjoyed it). The towers had wooden boxes in them with a red cross on them; the one I checked was empty apart from a stretcher.

I can remember a discussion in the climber's bar (which is a weird place where they've painted a mural of ladies pointing and laughing above the urinals) where I spoke with someone who'd been drilling that day. He made it clear I should only pull on the small holds as the big ones were mostly soft or loose.

Another sight I remember is they were often TRing towers with multiple ropes tied together and they were very handy at passing these around their fig-8 devices.

T_B

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You’d have to get a guidebook Duncan but my memory of Labske was it was sportingly bolted but not crazy. This photo of K is on an immaculate 6c+.

https://www.instagram.com/p/CGFyKy4jDHP/

I wouldn’t say don’t go to Ardspach/Teplice as it’s worth going just to marvel at what was climbed back in the 50s. We get v excited about Whillans and Brown but tbh the Czechs were doing much harder and more dangerous FAs in that era. Honestly there’s not much to do at Ardspach unless you’re comfortable on sighting E5s or are very solid on wide cracks.

Bear in mind that when we were in Labske K was not really into it (she did lead some bold stuff mind) and when I was in Ardspach one E9 leader in our team refused Point Blank (hint) to lead anything!

jwi

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I wouldn’t say don’t go to Ardspach/Teplice as it’s worth going just to marvel at what was climbed back in the 50s. We get v excited about Whillans and Brown but tbh the Czechs were doing much harder and more dangerous FAs in that era. Honestly there’s not much to do at Ardspach unless you’re comfortable on sighting E5s or are very solid on wide cracks.


I am not particularly bold (I think) but I thought Adrspach & Teplice were amazing (Cross hill a bit less so). My oh has told me in no uncertain terms that she will not be going there and if I go with someone else it goes towards the one climbing trip per year I am allowed.

I thought Teplice was a lot more user friendly than Adrspach, but that was perhaps down to the routes we did. In Adrspach we did a lot of unprotected offwidths and chimneys. In Teplice I just remember hand-cracks and face climbing on OK holds (and one brutal offwidth with a brilliant line).

I have climbed very little around Dresden, as it started to rain. What little we did was good but I remember Adr/Teplice as better.

The guidebooks where absolutely abysmal though. Text only guidebooks with very vague descriptions. I can read german OK-ish, but I almost killed my parter because I did not really know what a Zacke was, and Czech not at all. Teplice had one that was borderline useable for a few sectors. It definitely adds to the difficulty that in the end you just walk around and try to figure out from the ground what you would be willing to do without really knowing the difficulty.

T_B

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Exactly! The birds-eye-view topos of the towers are not very helpful when you’re on the ground wandering among them. Maybe nowadays you could send a drone up and use that in conjunction with the guidebook. We also ended up just trying stuff that looked either protected or at least doable.

 

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