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Calling Of The Bolt Chopping. (Read 35895 times)

Neil F

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#300 Re: Calling Of The Bolt Chopping.
December 07, 2022, 03:03:11 pm

Other routes can in my mind be singular and I was referring to GA.

I spent a long time plotting to climb this and spoke to anyone I knew who had been on it. I never had the opportunity before hurting myself and moving away.

Well, I hope you do get to lead it one day, just as I hope to.  And if you do, I'd be incredibly surprised if the recently replaced (like for like) pegs, spoil the experience for you.  Good luck!

Neil

Neil F

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#301 Re: Calling Of The Bolt Chopping.
December 07, 2022, 06:22:48 pm

Quote
"hand-drilling on lead is typically held in high esteem as best acceptable style" - JB.

But that doesn't make the bolting done in this way any better.  It's far, far worse, as again, it just results in shit bolts in shit places that need replacing 2 mins later.


I'm sorry, Nemo, but that statement is patently bollocks.  Given how few major new routes in the UK are put up in this style, I have to assume you are referring to routes established this way in places where this approach is still "held in high esteem".

eg. Many places in the States.

I'll give you one example which perfectly illustrates why you are wrong.  One of the most enjoyable routes I did in Yosemite was Stoner's Highway on Middle Cathedral.  On this route, the bolts are excellent quality, because they've all been replaced.  But at the same time, it is quite obvious that the placements are where you could stop (or more accurately where the on sight first ascentionists could stop), not where you would place them if equipping a sport route from above.

And far from spoiling the experience, it definitely enhanced it for me, and left me not only with great respect for the pioneers, but gratitude that their approach had been preserved when the time came to upgrade the kit.

There's a reason why this on sight ethic is revered in places like this, and if you want to better understand this, I suggest you go and do Stoner's Highway.

Neil

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#302 Re: Calling Of The Bolt Chopping.
December 07, 2022, 07:10:36 pm
Thanks Neil. TBH I was more thinking of the ethic in the sandstone areas of Germany and Czech rep etc. In the face of the ongoing homogenisation of climbing worldwide, I think it’s worth noting where adventurous climbing survives and seeing what we can learn from them. The idea that such areas are simply retarded, as Nemo suggests, seems to me the height of arrogance.

teestub

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#303 Re: Calling Of The Bolt Chopping.
December 07, 2022, 07:45:32 pm
It's interesting that you see that sandstone ethic as something to aspire to, I guess there would be a lot fewer route climbers in our country and therefore quieter crags if that's how all our routes were equiped!

mrjonathanr

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#304 Re: Calling Of The Bolt Chopping.
December 07, 2022, 08:01:40 pm
The point is, surely, that it's organic? A natural ethical evolution given what rock they have and its limitations, as people have increasingly pushed the boundaries?

Which is why slamming a bolt into trad routes originally done without bolts in an era of inferior kit, inferior training facilities and training knowledge, seems like such a massively retrograde step.  Frankly, if it wasn't, there wouldn't be the same keen desire to disguise the nature of the bolts.

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#305 Re: Calling Of The Bolt Chopping.
December 07, 2022, 10:04:22 pm
I guess there would be a lot fewer route climbers in our country and therefore quieter crags if that's how all our routes were equiped!

Why, because it's so complicated to get right a lot would have died? :)

spidermonkey09

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#306 Re: Calling Of The Bolt Chopping.
December 07, 2022, 10:29:37 pm
At the risk of poking a hornets nest, are any of those complaining actually going to go and do anything about it?

At the end of the day it's a fairly binary issue, the bolts/pegs/whatever the fuck are going to stay in or they're going to come out. I suspect they will stay in because not enough people feel strongly enough about it to care, which probably condemns this thread and the ukc equivalents to going round in circles for the foreseeable.

It's interesting discussion don't get me wrong, but its all totally academic surely? The sheer range of different opinions (i agree with different bits of about 6 or 7 different posters on here, but none of them entirely) makes reaching any sort of consensus almost impossible.

I guess discussion is worthwhile, if only to shape the context in which future pegbolts may or may not get placed. But I think we may be fooling ourselves if we're trying to get any sort of agreement.
« Last Edit: December 07, 2022, 10:53:34 pm by spidermonkey09 »

Nemo

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#307 Re: Calling Of The Bolt Chopping.
December 07, 2022, 10:34:08 pm
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"Why and how is it different in 'mountaineering territory'? How do you define such?" - JB
Didn't get around to the why? or how to define? earlier.
In terms of how to define, when you're using ice axes would seem like a pretty clear start (ignoring the fact that someone could go and dry tool a VS at Stanage).
And largely for the reasons that you're talking about - when winter climbing you're carrying a hammer anyway, so carrying a few pegs for emergencies is perfectly sensible.  And in that context they're typically being placed on lead, under pressure as a result of there being no better options.  Hard to pontificate about ethics in that scenario.  Very different situation to someone going out with the intention of placing or replacing fixed gear on rock routes - where, as I said before, I'd happily see no more hammered pegs. 

Quote
"I suggest you go and do Stoner's Highway." - Neil F
As it happens, I did this back in 1999.  First pitch felt like a classic slate slab pitch (with better friction obviously!), bit run out, lots of fun.
I guess we took different things from the experience.
But, as I said before there's lots of this kind of thing, mainly outside the UK as you say.  And yes some of the routes are fantastic (some of the Beat Kammerlander things in the Ratikon look amazing).
But I stand by what I said, which is that it does not result in better bolting.  As you point out yourself on that route the bolts are now great, but only because they've all had to be replaced.  As to their location, you can choose (as on slate) to create run out routes with bolts only at obvious stopping points if placing bolts on ab just as well if that's what's wanted.  And you can take your time to actually place good quality bolts that don't need replacing 2 mins later.

Quote
"There's a reason why this on sight ethic is revered in places like this"
Yeah, and it's that the ground up bolting ethic evolved out of aid climbing ethics in a place where aid climbing is still revered.  Look, I'm all for adventurous ground up attempts on stuff, some of the things Leo Houlding tried to do ground up in Yosemite were amazing - but he was actually trying to ground up free climb.   On the flip side, remember all the grief that Tommy Calwell got when he first started equipping stuff on ab?  And a lot of that criticism was coming from people who were aid climbing stuff, placing bolts whilst sat on aid gear, then working the pitch to death, before redpointing it.  The idea that somehow just because they'd started at the bottom made the ethics of how the bolts were placed any better was just silly.  It only made sense from an aid climbing perspective.
 
Quote
"The idea that such areas are simply retarded" - JB
I'm not suggested that.  I'm suggesting that they shouldn't be held up as a beacon of ethics that we should all aspire to.
And let's not forget that the most infamous bolting episode in history - Maestri on Cerro Torre - endless line of drilled bolts up one of the most iconic mountains in the world, something you no doubt despise - was, you guessed it, bolted ground up...

Anyway, a lot of this is a bit beside the point.  Obviously we're not going to change ethics anywhere outside the UK.  We're just discussing what to do within the UK.  My point is just that JB was holding up ground up bolting as something to aspire to.  I don't agree.  I think it's largely a relic of aid climbing ethics that needs consigning to the dustbin of history.  Along with pegs on the vast majority of rock in the UK.  That's no criticism of the pioneers who did this kind of thing, just means I don't think it's something we should be looking to emulate going forward when placing fixed gear in the UK.

If everyone disagrees, that's fair enough.

spidermonkey09

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#308 Re: Calling Of The Bolt Chopping.
December 07, 2022, 10:39:38 pm
Ha, Nemos latest post a great example; I agree wholeheartedly with their view that ground up bolting is anachronistic bullshit, disagree that pegs (and by extension their eventual, possibly sustainable and long lasting replacement) have no place in British climbing.  :lol:

Johnny Brown

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#309 Re: Calling Of The Bolt Chopping.
December 08, 2022, 12:24:53 pm
Quote
the ground up bolting ethic evolved out of aid climbing ethics in a place where aid climbing is still revered.

Not really no, in California it evolved out of ground-up on often massive cliffs by any sporting means. Aid was part of that scene and always will be. And on European sandstone which you conveniently ignore it had very little to do with aid climbing. Again, a ground-up ethic evolved as a logical response to the rock formations.

The point is not that ground-up bolting is anything to aspire to (agree it is anachronistic in the UK), it's that trad/ adventure climbing is defined by the style of the approach, not by the means, and even bolts can be part of a sufficiently adventurous approach. More typically bolts are emblematic of quite the opposite, but I don't see it very helpful to ignore the exceptions. They are important. Trad climbing is all about style which means shades of grey not black and white.

I don't have any problem with people thinking pegs have no place in British climbing, but I don't think it's much use - it's a position made irrelevant by reality. Pegs were and are a part of British climbing. They are still being placed by first ascensionists without uproar, and can't be easily removed in many cases. Conflating them with bolts is a gross over-simplification. Some years ago we did this debate to death about peak limestone, which might explain mine (and possibly Neil's) more equivocal positions. Here it was more obvious that what was being sought was trad-lite retrobolting anywhere pegs remained.

Much as I think Chris has gone too far in many cases, there also seems to be proof that he has just replaced pegs in others. Until there is a cross-checked list I don't see any sense on assuming they are all drilled and glued. Ultimately the difference in opinion here may boil down to our levels of insight into Chris' honesty and modus operandi, but I'll continue to give him the benefit of the doubt for now.

It's simple to be a pro-bolt activist - you just get a drill and crack on - but much harder to be actively anti-bolt. Chopping bolts is not the result you want, bolts not being placed is, which requires building consensus and trying to encourage adherence. Again, reality intrudes with the venn diagram of maverick bolters vs sensible majority having little overlap.




Duncan campbell

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#310 Re: Calling Of The Bolt Chopping.
December 09, 2022, 09:21:02 am
I have been considering the “how can we be actively anti-pegbolt” conundrum.

I have been pondering how to get ones that have been resined in, out???

do you angle grind them off?
Not ideal as it leaves a stump and potential for catching the rock and leaving even more of a mess.

Do you try and crack the resin and get them out that way?
I’ve done this with threaded bar at work but these are square so don’t think this would work?

Could you use a pull-tester and pull them out?
Don’t know if 10kN would be enough to pull these out?

Funnily enough Nick Bullock posted a blog about this thing and Andy Moles posted on this saying nothing in particular, and Steve Long commented saying if anyone has any problems with the pegbolts Mr Parkin has some kit that can be used to take them out. Having pondered this I asked what this equipment was. I got a really weird response that was of no use at all.

So apparently there is some magic way to get rid of them…

mark20

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#311 Re: Calling Of The Bolt Chopping.
December 09, 2022, 09:40:45 am
I have been considering the “how can we be actively anti-pegbolt” conundrum.

I have been pondering how to get ones that have been resined in, out???

do you angle grind them off?
Not ideal as it leaves a stump and potential for catching the rock and leaving even more of a mess.

Do you try and crack the resin and get them out that way?
I’ve done this with threaded bar at work but these are square so don’t think this would work?

Could you use a pull-tester and pull them out?
Don’t know if 10kN would be enough to pull these out?

Funnily enough Nick Bullock posted a blog about this thing and Andy Moles posted on this saying nothing in particular, and Steve Long commented saying if anyone has any problems with the pegbolts Mr Parkin has some kit that can be used to take them out. Having pondered this I asked what this equipment was. I got a really weird response that was of no use at all.

So apparently there is some magic way to get rid of them…

If they are in a seam you might be able to hammer back and forth, to crack the resin bond, then use a pull tester. For ones glued into a perfectly drilled hole, I'd expect you'd need alot more than 10kN. I'm pretty sure you'd need a grinder. It can usually be done with minimal mess, and put a bit of resin over what's left and it will look fairly neat.

Duncan campbell

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#312 Re: Calling Of The Bolt Chopping.
December 09, 2022, 09:43:06 am
Good knowledge good sir!

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#313 Re: Calling Of The Bolt Chopping.
December 09, 2022, 09:49:07 am
I have been considering the “how can we be actively anti-pegbolt” conundrum.

I have been pondering how to get ones that have been resined in, out???

do you angle grind them off?
Not ideal as it leaves a stump and potential for catching the rock and leaving even more of a mess.

Do you try and crack the resin and get them out that way?
I’ve done this with threaded bar at work but these are square so don’t think this would work?

Could you use a pull-tester and pull them out?
Don’t know if 10kN would be enough to pull these out?

Funnily enough Nick Bullock posted a blog about this thing and Andy Moles posted on this saying nothing in particular, and Steve Long commented saying if anyone has any problems with the pegbolts Mr Parkin has some kit that can be used to take them out. Having pondered this I asked what this equipment was. I got a really weird response that was of no use at all.

So apparently there is some magic way to get rid of them…

I'd heard from some more regular sport developers that for normal glue ins, you just need a long lever through the eye and rotate. I can't see why this wouldn't apply to the P-Bolts? Access might be an issue as they may be squeezed into nooks and crannies.

My personal view (and I know this isn't everyone's) is that removal needs as much careful consideration as the placing in the first place (or more).

I'd support removal where they seem unnecessary, but would be against it if the route went from being moderately protected to objectively dangerous. I think we have enough rarely-climbed chop routes in this country as it is.

Duncan campbell

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#314 Re: Calling Of The Bolt Chopping.
December 09, 2022, 10:24:19 am
Yeah that’s what I was kind of talking about with the cracking the resin thing. I guess the square nature of the pegs might mean it doesn’t work so well? As with threaded bar or normal bolts the bond is purely between resin and steel. Whereas with these pegbolts the right angles also act as mechanical strength against the hardened resin?

Could well be wrong though!

I also agree that removal needs to be well planned. I was musing more than anything else. Though I have to say the pegbolts on the cruise would be the obvious ones to remove should any be removed…  :worms:

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#315 Re: Calling Of The Bolt Chopping.
December 09, 2022, 10:29:27 am
It's good that the conversation has moved on to how the bolts should be removed.


Agreed, I'm pretty surprised someone hasn't gone and unilaterally debolted Gogarth. It would be interesting to know how much that's because
1) people don't mind Gogarth being bolted in a limited way (i.e. to replace old pegs)
2) people are kidding themselves that these things aren't bolts
3) people just can't be bothered (fair enough - it's would be a right ballache!!)
After 11 pages I feel like most people are surprisingly ok being in camp 1, and those not in camp 1 fall into camps 2 or 3... I guess I would have predicted more strength of feeling (with a few exceptions who think it's bullshit!) and it's worth making sure that's not because of lots of people in camp 2

3a) Would like to see the bolts taken out of Gogarth but are not sure they have the tools or skills to do it without making a bigger mess in the process. ie what cheque says. Further complicated by the access: for a similar reason you don’t see many films of climbing on Gogarth main cliff.

Back in the 80s, Gary Gibson started putting bolts into Pembroke. He did this unilaterally because that's what he does. They were removed unilaterally. Gibson got the message and took his drill elsewhere. I think we've got to this stage with Gogarth.

I've climbed, failed on, or belayed someone on Citadel, 15 Men... and The Cruise. None of these need bolts and they should be removed. It would be great if Chris would do this as he seems to have the skills, equipment, and he's local. I'd buy him a pint in the spirit of a sinner repenting. I once studied Metallurgy and worked for British Steel. I was crap at both but it is surprising how the climbing relevant stuff has stayed with me. I've also placed, hung on, fallen on, and removed hundreds of pegs so I'm not a complete amateur. However I'm not exactly local. Happy to do what I can next summer if they are still there.

Usually I'd be in favour of attempting to gain a consensus to avoid the cycle of bolting, chopping and re-bolting but, from where I'm looking, it appears the bolters have calculatedly avoided gaining consensus with their nudge, nudge, wink, wink, rotary chipping eco-pegs bullshit (paid for by the North Wales bolt fund, correct me if any of this is wrong, the truth has been deliberately obscured at every stage). I was prepared to accept Chris does not wish to debate on social media but then watched the BMC YouTube video after which I had considerably less sympathy. This is both a masterpiece of dissembling and contains several factual errors (softer steel, low carbon, pegs do not offer superior strength in irregular cracks, this myth was disabused in the 1970s; correct me if I'm wrong, but I doubt if glue will add corrosion resistance). I'm assuming the anonymous narrator is Chris? He may be a guide and rope-access person but doesn't sound like he's a metallurgist or engineer.

Pulling and patching would leave a much better result than an angle-grinder. The rectangular cross-section of the p-bolts means they are going to be hard to twist out. I've seen Francis Hayden pull circular cross-section glue-ins straight out of limestone with a hydraulic bolt tester (required c.30kN if I recall correctly) leaving just a neat hole. He's rarely in the UK and I doubt he'd lend out his kit. Anyone have access to something similar? According to Steve Long on UKC, the peg in The Cruise is not drilled or glued. If this is true then lots of tapping and a funkness device would do the job. I can lend someone the latter.

 
« Last Edit: December 09, 2022, 10:35:36 am by duncan »

Johnny Brown

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#316 Re: Calling Of The Bolt Chopping.
December 09, 2022, 10:55:34 am
Yes, the narrator is definitely Chris.

I've got several pull-testers. They are expensive, but you can hire them from most hire places for £70 for a weekend. We did have one which was out of test and ideal for this, bit someone borrowed it and didn't return it. But would be happy to lend one to a responsible user.

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#317 Re: Calling Of The Bolt Chopping.
December 09, 2022, 10:56:56 am
Sorry if i missed it, what vid are you guys talking about?

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#318 Re: Calling Of The Bolt Chopping.
December 09, 2022, 11:05:38 am
3a) Would like to see the bolts taken out of Gogarth but are not sure they have the tools or skills to do it without making a bigger mess in the process. ie what cheque says.
Yeah, I can imagine doing a good job would be hard. Much harder (or at least more scary I would bet!) to remove than place bolts probably - hence why old bolts often stick around when things are rebolted (unless nice overdrilled expansions). I find the idea of swinging around with an angle grinder terifying, but then I've always been shit at DIY. I can imagine the pool of people who know what they're doing with a pull-tester on an ab rope half way down Gogarth is quite limited!

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#319 Re: Calling Of The Bolt Chopping.
December 09, 2022, 11:13:52 am
Sorry if i missed it, what vid are you guys talking about?


SA Chris

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#320 Re: Calling Of The Bolt Chopping.
December 09, 2022, 11:27:34 am
thanks

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#321 Re: Calling Of The Bolt Chopping.
December 09, 2022, 12:30:14 pm
My that’s a niche video. A great partner for the current series of BMC videos where young climbers in shiny down jackets give you a tour of a city’s climbing walls   :lol:

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#322 Re: Calling Of The Bolt Chopping.
December 09, 2022, 02:26:24 pm
Not caught up with this for a few days and am unable to contribute much to this as I’m now a hobo between house moves, temporarily living in the pass CC hut without phone signal or internet which is quite nice.. good view from the front door of the Cascade/Central Icefall ice slowly growing.

JB I could add more detail about why you’re likely wrong in your belief that the Gogarth ones are hand placed rather than drilled. But I don’t have time/patience with current limitations to make it a coherent post. One of the Gogarth ones likely isn’t drilled, three Strand ones 100% are drilled (I was there helping him do it), the others.. the evidence suggests v.likely a drill involved.

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#323 Re: Calling Of The Bolt Chopping.
December 09, 2022, 05:30:51 pm
Sure Pete, you are closer to this than me. All I’m saying is if one of them ‘likely isn’t drilled’ then prob doesn’t make sense to call it a bolt. Agree the Strand ones all look drilled, albeit in old placements?

What has been achieved so far is it is very much in the public eye and hopefully will slow the placement of more fixed gear of any type.

Keep us in the loop with winter conditions please!

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#324 Re: Calling Of The Bolt Chopping.
December 09, 2022, 08:57:20 pm

Usually I'd be in favour of attempting to gain a consensus to avoid the cycle of bolting, chopping and re-bolting but, from where I'm looking, it appears the bolters have calculatedly avoided gaining consensus with their nudge, nudge, wink, wink, rotary chipping eco-pegs bullshit (paid for by the North Wales bolt fund, correct me if any of this is wrong, the truth has been deliberately obscured at every stage).
At the area meet Dave Turnbull clarified that BMC funds do not go towards the NWBF in general, and only go towards obligatory checking and renewal of lower-offs for access requirements e.g. Marine Drive. Chris Parkin clarified that the NWBF is used as a privately held "no questions asked" fund in which funds from guidebook sales and donations go in, and fixed gear supplies come out, which are then given or sold on at a low price to people who are offering to apply fixed gear to the rock, without any discussion as to what the latter entails (i.e. could be replacing an old and useful lower-off, could be retro-bolting a good safe trad route). Unfortunately I can remember if it was also clarified if the NWBF was used in the same way to supply p-bolts. Maybe Si W can?

 

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