I am intrigued to know why this Topic and other similar roped idiocy is being openly and brilliantly discussed on this forum and not on other perhaps more appropriately named platforms? {Not complaining}.
Because you can sometimes/often have a sensible discussion on here whereas that's more rarely the case on something like UKC
Quote from: scragrock on December 07, 2022, 11:12:30 amI am intrigued to know why this Topic and other similar roped idiocy is being openly and brilliantly discussed on this forum and not on other perhaps more appropriately named platforms? {Not complaining}.You clearly don't frequent the 'other... more appropriately named platforms' where this subject has been discussed to death..But to your broader point, despite this forum's somewhat misleading name, there are many roped climbers amongst its members. For me, I find the quality of debate much higher here than on 'the other channel' so despite not having bouldered since 1983, I find this forum generally more stimulating and refreshingly irreverent than you know where. That is as long as I remember to avoid the unroped idiocy...Neil
That is as long as I remember to avoid the unroped idiocy...
I tried to wade through the the some of the P-bolt debate on UKC and it was as dire as could be expected. Very little reasoned debate and the usual noise and shouty angry people.
5. What's the incentive not to openly call these bolts even though they are? Who benefits?
2. A glued peg that goes in without needing drilling is a glued peg (stainless or otherwise).4. The twisted semantics around these bolts tells its own story. You don't have this kind of obfuscation and deliberately-veiled language such as 'battery operated hammer-action chisel with a rotary option' or 'eco peg' if there's nothing to hide. A drill is a drill, not a 'battery operated hammer-action chisel with a rotary option'. Drilling is drilling, not 'enhancing depth'. This is the language of bullshit.
But I'd be quick to chop a bolt if it appeared nearby.
Clearly if we're talking mountaineering territory, that's different.
But on all UK cliffs, if someone is placing fixed gear, it should be placed well and if that requires placing it from abseil, that's no issue.
JB and various others get terribly excited about fixed gear going "where the rock allows". Which is largely bollocks
On easier stuff I just see it as a historical quirk that trad climbing came along first and snapped up all the good quality rock. Whereas it didn't get there first on the blanker harder stuff, so that got bolted.
So just decide which areas and routes need fixed gear, and which don't, and where using fixed gear, use long lasting good quality bolts and stop pratting about with pegs.
I'd personally strip the Cave Routes at Goredale, as they are or should be to me at least absolutely classic trad routes that people can aspire to. As sport routes, meh.
Quote from: Fultonius on December 07, 2022, 12:18:53 pmI tried to wade through the the some of the P-bolt debate on UKC and it was as dire as could be expected. Very little reasoned debate and the usual noise and shouty angry people... sayeth the lords looking down on the house of commons Both discussions are needed. Can't decide everything from the shadows of the smoking parlour anymore, even if a lot of the actors are in that room. I agree it's painful, but there's a few topics where it's worth adding a voice on there. I thought this was one of them.
I'm pretty surprised someone hasn't gone and unilaterally debolted Gogarth. It would be interesting to know how much that's because …. people just can't be bothered (fair enough - it's would be a right ballache!!)
I now know about other routes which have now been regularly climbed without pegs in N Wales which have also been repegged based on the "tradition" of there being pegs.
It's second hand information but esoteric'ish classic big E5s.
Quote from: Johnny Brown on December 07, 2022, 12:52:45 pm But I'd be quick to chop a bolt if it appeared nearby.So why the lack of bolt-chopping plans for the bolts that do seem to have been placed next to/over old pegs? It seems like maybe there's a desire to not see them as bolts so that no-one has to have a shit faffy day going and taking them out!
Just when you were threatening to pull together a cogent position, you deliver this spectacular contradiction! - JB
Has anyone ever actually climbed the Cave routes without any fixed gear? Almost certainly not, they were aid routes bristling with pegs where the aid was whittled away while providing innumerable fixed points for the 'trad' climber to aim for. - JB
"What you are actually saying here is everything in the UK should henceforth be black and white except for the memorable routes of my teenage years, which should stay exactly the grey they were! LOL." - JB
"I find the history and evolution part of what makes the sport interesting, and often adds character to routes where features allow us to read that history as we climb." - JB
"Why should it be placed well?" - JB
"Why and how is it different in 'mountaineering territory'? How do you define such?" - JB
Great Arete on Llech Ddu.
Neil,I was not suggesting pegbolts on GA and apologies if it read like that.
I now know about other routes which have now been regularly climbed without pegs in N Wales which have also been repegged based on the "tradition" of there being pegs. To me this is undesirable as it effectively retro pegs the routes as they are/were a year ago and leaves it open to further pegbolts in the future.