[remus]

This is the start I made, just using Craig y Forwyn as an example:

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1bjkz6TIMXeLIAJoCCzLRJMKhYx3Gn1hykb8AmT9L028/edit?usp=sharing

Feedback or suggestions (or more data) welcome before I put more time into fleshing it out.

Good effort Andy, putting in the work. I've requested edit access, Ican make some tweaks that'll make filtering/searching/analysing the data a little easier (if that's something you're bothered about).

[andy moles]

I think I've given you editing permission Remus. Please do - I'm a punter with this sort of thing.

[andy moles]

'Best estimate of age' and 'Material' columns?
Large lawyer's disclaimer and anonymity

I think they're all within the last ten years and made of the same stuff, so that probably doesn't add much.

I don't follow you about disclaimer and anonymity...?

[remus]

I think I've given you editing permission Remus. Please do - I'm a punter with this sort of thing.

Sorted. Just give me a nudge if you want any tech support, least I can do when you're getting out there and putting in the hard work.

[Fiend]

Good stuff Andy and remus.

The separate lines for each p-bolt was confusing me but it's better now with the route name repeated so you know they're all for that route.

Could you do the red / yellow / green colours slightly more muted as they're a bit eye-sodomising at the mo??

Could we also have a spacer between the separate areas??

You can add Castell Cidwm - Central Wall - 1 p-bolt - replaces old peg - maintains same standard of route

[andy moles]

Done. If anyone can fill in any of the gaps in my knowledge (or correct any mistakes), please do. Maybe message me privately to save cluttering this thread. Or request to be added as an editor if you can fill in a bunch of it.

[Teaboy]

I think there should be a separate sheet for fully retro’d routes, e.g. Beaverbrooks, as this is a different issue.

[andy moles]

Yeah, fair enough. I only put that one in because initially it had a PB and was fully retro'd later.

[steveri]

I think they're all within the last ten years and made of the same stuff, so that probably doesn't add much.
I don't follow you about disclaimer and anonymity...?

But if the document grows legs it would be good to record as much history as you can so people can make their own judgment about reliability? I might have run with the idea of it being 'fixed gear' record, rather than a more limited 'recent pegbolt' record. As you were if that's the intention.

By disclaimer, I meant some form of wording that shows you're recording on a 'best efforts' only basis. It isn't definitive and isn't something people should rely on 100% to make decisions in serious situations. Good idea and applaud the effort but it's likely you'll need multiple inputs and no one person carrying the reliability can.

[andy moles]

I think they're all within the last ten years and made of the same stuff, so that probably doesn't add much.
I don't follow you about disclaimer and anonymity...?

But if the document grows legs it would be good to record as much history as you can so people can make their own judgment about reliability? I might have run with the idea of it being 'fixed gear' record, rather than a more limited 'recent pegbolt' record. As you were if that's the intention.

While that would be useful in many ways, it's way beyond the scope of what I'm willing to do! There must be thousands of routes with fixed gear in North Wales, and I can't imagine even with collaborative input you'd get even close to tracing the provenance of it all.

This is only meant to record specific instances where (predominantly) trad routes have been equipped/re-equipped with these bolts-made-to-look-like-pegs, to make the varying status of their use transparent as a point of reference for debate.

Maybe the list should include all instances of bolts on trad routes (with the exception of slate, which has always been a weird illogical hybrid). Though that might dilute its value in highlighting the question of these 'P' bolts specifically.

I hadn't really considered the need to disclaim anything, seems a bit far-fetched for anyone to rely on such information, but I guess there's no harm!

[Johnny Brown]

Also, why can’t Chris Parkin be named?

I didn't see what value it added.

I know Chris had the bolts made, but is there really no one else involved? We've got ten in the office here (not mine obvs) so he's obviously fairly free handing them out.

[andy moles]

I know Chris had the bolts made, but is there really no one else involved?

He's definitely not the only person who's placed them.

Edit: I don't mean that as a tease, I don't know exactly who's done what, but I think it should be clear that it's not a one-man campaign.

[petejh]

I think there may be some p-bolts on the routes on the Chicama wall, but not sure how many. Treacherous Underfoot, Chicama/Gravity Wave, Crow Road. I'll let you know in the spring!

[Fiend]

In a bizarre and counter-intuitive twist of fate, there is a line of P-Bolts up the previously minor but nice trad suntrap venue of Tramstation Crag, BUT it's actually up a completely sensible new sport route taking an obvious gap in between the previous trad routes and in theory complimenting them nicely 

[petejh]

Get it chopped.

[andy moles]

In a bizarre and counter-intuitive twist of fate, there is a line of P-Bolts up the previously minor but nice trad suntrap venue of Tramstation Crag, BUT it's actually up a completely sensible new sport route taking an obvious gap in between the previous trad routes and in theory complimenting them nicely 

I decided not to put that or Painted Groove Direct on the list because those are new, non-retro sport routes, so apart from being equipped with P bolts not part of the same question. (Though PGD gets E7 instead of 8a on UKC for some reason).

[Fiend]

Yes definitely separate issues. Well independent new sport routes on The Ormes shouldn't be an issue for anyone, whilst "Should Rhoscolyn sea-cliffs have sport routes on them??" is a different and exciting

[Fiend]

Forgot about this that I posted a year or so ago....

[SA Chris]

VS is never 7b+

[andy moles]

...except in Northumberland.

[SiWitcher]

I think there may be some p-bolts on the routes on the Chicama wall, but not sure how many. Treacherous Underfoot, Chicama/Gravity Wave, Crow Road. I'll let you know in the spring!

When I was compiling the list I took to the BMC NW Area meeting on 19 Oct as linked here: https://community.thebmc.co.uk/GetFile.ashx?did=3899 , Callum advised that Chicama has 1 drilled/glued runner currently, but no others on that wall as far as he knew.

[The Shocker]

I can confirm Crow Rd and Treacherous both have a number of stainless steel pitons (as well a other pegs and bits of metal) but no peg bolts.

[shark]

Further to a discussion on FB I’ve been told that any drilling has been limited to drilling out old pegs.

Is that the case Pete? Andy?

Sorry if this has been covered already.

[mrjonathanr]

I abbed down Manhattan Highrise / Katie’s Delight whilst descending from an adjacent route. Didn’t see anything that pointed to old pegs- these routes are quite new, aren’t they? 2019 and 2015? Just looked like common-or-garden bolts to me.

[shark]

Sorry. My bad. I was referring to the peg bolts on Gogarth and elsewhere