[Fiend]

No it's a serious point that the sort of behaviour in question in theory doesn't physically impinge on one's personal enjoyment, but in climbing as a community and publicly shared activity as Will highlighted, it is still unavoidably repulsive. I suppose if people did those revolting things and kept them entirely private it would be less awful. A bit like the weirdo in my metaphor going for a shit on an entirely different and secluded country lane that no-one ever saw.

[Droyd]

Can you explain why any one of those things is of detriment not to your climbing but to this imagined 'climbing community', without resorting to subjective language? i.e. you can't just say that it's bad because you think it's bad and refuse to acknowledge that it's a type of climbing that other people get pleasure out of. Bonus points if you can do so without selectively defining 'climbing' or 'the climbing community' to fit your argument (so no 'those people aren't even climbers' or 'tottering HXS 3c shale is the only real form of climbing' nonsense).

[36chambers]

As I said before, time and tide wait for nobody, but it still baffles me that people have to film EVERYTHING now.

Agreed, these people need to take a long hard look in the mirror

https://www.instagram.com/p/CplcdrGjN8J/

[andy moles]

UKB, don't ever change.

The 3 highest mountains in the UK has an obvious attraction

Point of order, they aren't the 3 highest mountains in the UK. By the most commonly used prominence thresholds, they are the 1st, 57th and 184th* highest mountains. Since when did mountains care about arbitrary political borders?

*if anyone's feeling really pedantic, you may wish to review this. 

[Dingdong]

No it's a serious point that the sort of behaviour in question in theory doesn't physically impinge on one's personal enjoyment, but in climbing as a community and publicly shared activity as Will highlighted, it is still unavoidably repulsive. I suppose if people did those revolting things and kept them entirely private it would be less awful. A bit like the weirdo in my metaphor going for a shit on an entirely different and secluded country lane that no-one ever saw.

Both you and Will have put up shit first ascents and sprayed about it on your social media accounts  maybe before talking smack you could delete your Instagram and Facebook and UKB accounts 

[stone]

I'm all for trying to foster multiculturalism in climbing ethics as in everything else.

Can't we have it where people at the crag are convivial across the dabbing/pre-clipping/filming/whatever divides but still enjoy their own sub-communities and cultures if they want?

[spidermonkey09]

Droyd ; even if you're right and the actions of part of the climbing community don't directly affect others, does that mean having a negative opinion of it is wrong? Are people only allowed opinions on things that directly affect them? It's not a line of argument that holds in my opinion. One can hold negative views about things that will never affect their lives directly without it being in any way problematic.

[spidermonkey09]

No it's a serious point that the sort of behaviour in question in theory doesn't physically impinge on one's personal enjoyment, but in climbing as a community and publicly shared activity as Will highlighted, it is still unavoidably repulsive. I suppose if people did those revolting things and kept them entirely private it would be less awful. A bit like the weirdo in my metaphor going for a shit on an entirely different and secluded country lane that no-one ever saw.

Both you and Will have put up shit first ascents and sprayed about it on your social media accounts  maybe before talking smack you could delete your Instagram and Facebook and UKB accounts 

You seem to be taking this awfully personally. Do you currently own the Steve Dunning Depot Round record?

[stone]

Droyd ; even if you're right and the actions of part of the climbing community don't directly affect others, does that mean having a negative opinion of it is wrong? Are people only allowed opinions on things that directly affect them? It's not a line of argument that holds in my opinion. One can hold negative views about things that will never affect their lives directly without it being in any way problematic.

I think it is better to be positive and practice and talk about the climbing style that you find personally satisfying for yourself.

That seems to me to be quite different from being disparaging about others who choose differently.

[slab_happy]

I'm going to point out that I fell in love with climbing at the original Arch when it was in a grubby railway arch next to London Bridge station, and there was a direct path from that to me getting hooked on gritstone, ending up moving up north, and spending too much time trying to drag people into climbing disgusting offwidths with me.

So:

a) I tend to think these climbing worlds are far less radically incompatible than people like to imagine.

b) As someone who voluntarily climbs offwidths, I don't think I'm in any position to judge the perverse, pointless and revolting things other people get up to.

[Dingdong]

No it's a serious point that the sort of behaviour in question in theory doesn't physically impinge on one's personal enjoyment, but in climbing as a community and publicly shared activity as Will highlighted, it is still unavoidably repulsive. I suppose if people did those revolting things and kept them entirely private it would be less awful. A bit like the weirdo in my metaphor going for a shit on an entirely different and secluded country lane that no-one ever saw.

Both you and Will have put up shit first ascents and sprayed about it on your social media accounts  maybe before talking smack you could delete your Instagram and Facebook and UKB accounts 

You seem to be taking this awfully personally. Do you currently own the Steve Dunning Depot Round record?

Not taking it personally at all, I just hate miserable hypocrites trying to dictate how others should enjoy climbing when they’re guilty of the exact same stuff they’re complaining about 

[spidermonkey09]

Droyd ; even if you're right and the actions of part of the climbing community don't directly affect others, does that mean having a negative opinion of it is wrong? Are people only allowed opinions on things that directly affect them? It's not a line of argument that holds in my opinion. One can hold negative views about things that will never affect their lives directly without it being in any way problematic.

I think it is better to be positive and practice and talk about the climbing style that you find personally satisfying for yourself.

That seems to me to be quite different from being disparaging about others who choose differently.

Yes, that's fair comment. But part of the reason we are positive about things we like is because we set them in opposition against things we don't. It's all on a spectrum. It doesn't seem unreasonable to discuss both ends of that spectrum surely. I'm just interested in the idea that it's not a reasonable /appropriate line of argument.

Carlos; I don't think anyone is dictating anything. They're saying they think what they're choosing to do is fucking stupid. You might think that makes them a wanker and that's fair enough but I dont think there's any dictating going on.

FWIW I think this is an interesting philosophical discussion

[Dingdong]

Droyd ; even if you're right and the actions of part of the climbing community don't directly affect others, does that mean having a negative opinion of it is wrong? Are people only allowed opinions on things that directly affect them? It's not a line of argument that holds in my opinion. One can hold negative views about things that will never affect their lives directly without it being in any way problematic.

I think it is better to be positive and practice and talk about the climbing style that you find personally satisfying for yourself.

That seems to me to be quite different from being disparaging about others who choose differently.

Yes, that's fair comment. But part of the reason we are positive about things we like is because we set them in opposition against things we don't. It's all on a spectrum. It doesn't seem unreasonable to discuss both ends of that spectrum surely. I'm just interested in the idea that it's not a reasonable /appropriate line of argument.

Carlos; I don't think anyone is dictating anything. They're saying they think what they're choosing to do is fucking stupid. You might think that makes them a wanker and that's fair enough but I dont think there's any dictating going on.

FWIW I think this is an interesting philosophical discussion

“I suppose if people did those revolting things and kept them entirely private it would be less awful.”

To me that is dictating how people should behave. And just like they’re giving their opinion am also entitled to mine.

[stone]

I think this pertains to how we all get along in the wider world and not just in climbing.

I guess most people think we should all look out for one another. Some people express that by imposing their values and choices onto others, guiding other people to take the correct path as they see it. Others express that by defending other peoples' freedom to do as they choose.

People are different and who is to say who is right anyway. That's why I think the live-and-let-live approach makes more sense.

[petejh]

Two things..
Slab_happy, did ‘Offwidth’ steal your username?
And, Fiend based on that turd analogy, if ‘comparison is the root cause of unhappiness’ then you seem doomed to remain forever unhappy.

[slab_happy]

Two things..
Slab_happy, did ‘Offwidth’ steal your username?
And, Fiend based on that turd analogy, if ‘comparison is the root cause of unhappiness’ then you seem doomed to remain forever unhappy.

I also enjoy cheesegrating bits of my body skidding down slabs! Or shredding my nerves not skidding down them.

[edshakey]

The popularity of this thread today very accurately reflects the weather. We'd have missed out on all of this if there was good conditions out!

[stone]

I don't think anyone is dictating anything. They're saying they think what they're choosing to do is fucking stupid. You might think that makes them a wanker and that's fair enough but I dont think there's any dictating going on.

I think disparaging someone is a sort of dictating. Humans are social animals. Being welcome in wider society is crucial to most people. Solitary confinement is unbearable for many/most people. I think disparaging what someone chooses to do is a sort of social exclusion. That's why I think it is important to stick to being positive about our own choices and not to stray into disparaging other peoples' choices.

[Oldmanmatt]

I don't think anyone is dictating anything. They're saying they think what they're choosing to do is fucking stupid. You might think that makes them a wanker and that's fair enough but I dont think there's any dictating going on.

I think disparaging someone is a sort of dictating. Humans are social animals. Being welcome in wider society is crucial to most people. Solitary confinement is unbearable for many/most people. I think disparaging what someone chooses to do is a sort of social exclusion. That's why I think it is important to stick to being positive about our own choices and not to stray into disparaging other peoples' choices.

Ditto.

[Will Hunt]

Not taking it personally at all, I just hate miserable hypocrites trying to dictate how others should enjoy climbing when they’re guilty of the exact same stuff they’re complaining about 

I don't think you've read or understood what I've written. I'm not, nor could I, dictate how anyone enjoys climbing. My argument is that indoor climbers/those who only boulder generally have a different attitude towards climbing (of course there are exceptions, Slab), and that these attitudes have spread beyond indoors/bouldering. The climbing community has changed from how it was when I started. This thread pokes fun at that. Railing about something is not the same as trying to change it.

Stone, to reflect your argument back to you:
Imagine a hypothetical climber who valued all the things I mentioned in my previous post, and who would turn up to a crag and find like-minded individuals and a community that they felt they belonged to. Can you then imagine how they might feel marginalised within that community as it changes over time?

[Dingdong]

Not taking it personally at all, I just hate miserable hypocrites trying to dictate how others should enjoy climbing when they’re guilty of the exact same stuff they’re complaining about 

I don't think you've read or understood what I've written. I'm not, nor could I, dictate how anyone enjoys climbing. My argument is that indoor climbers/those who only boulder generally have a different attitude towards climbing (of course there are exceptions, Slab), and that these attitudes have spread beyond indoors/bouldering. The climbing community has changed from how it was when I started. This thread pokes fun at that. Railing about something is not the same as trying to change it.

Stone, to reflect your argument back to you:
Imagine a hypothetical climber who valued all the things I mentioned in my previous post, and who would turn up to a crag and find like-minded individuals and a community that they felt they belonged to. Can you then imagine how they might feel marginalised within that community as it changes over time?

Do you not get bored of always complaining about the state of climbing? It’s pretty much the same thing you always complain about on here, it’s kinda boring. Also woe is me, you feel marginalised because climbing isn’t just about onsighting HVS’ anymore and people like to do other things (of which you have plenty videos of you doing those same things I.E. crappy lowball choss) - hence why I wanted to call out both of you for also being total hypocrites 

[spidermonkey09]

Hmm, whilst of course I would agree that living and let living is a noble ideal I also would defend piss taking and disparaging as part of a healthy society, and not something to be discouraged per se. It's probably the bit of British culture I like the most!

I do not agree that taking the piss is a form of social exclusion, I think that would be over egging it.

[teestub]

Stone, to reflect your argument back to you:
Imagine a hypothetical climber who valued all the things I mentioned in my previous post, and who would turn up to a crag and find like-minded individuals and a community that they felt they belonged to. Can you then imagine how they might feel marginalised within that community as it changes over time?

I'm sure there are plenty of individuals within the climbing community that share your values still, there's just more breadth now? Like if you go to Gimmer or Scafell east buttress I would assume there is still a dearth of portable fingerboards, bluetooth speakers and live streaming?

[Will Hunt]

Stone, to reflect your argument back to you:
Imagine a hypothetical climber who valued all the things I mentioned in my previous post, and who would turn up to a crag and find like-minded individuals and a community that they felt they belonged to. Can you then imagine how they might feel marginalised within that community as it changes over time?

I'm sure there are plenty of individuals within the climbing community that share your values still, there's just more breadth now? Like if you go to Gimmer or Scafell east buttress I would assume there is still a dearth of portable fingerboards, bluetooth speakers and live streaming?

Nah, it's helmet-mounted GoPros up there these days!

Carlos, you still don't seem to understand what I'm getting at. Never mind.

[stone]

I think piss-taking should be kept between close trusted friends. Then it can be friendly banter. Outside such circumstances I think it can be exclusionary meanness.

Basically, if you want to hang out with someone regardless of whether they continue to do what you are taking the piss out of, and they are sure of that, then it's probably OK to take the piss. Otherwise it probably isn't.

I'm happy to be corrected on this.