[spidermonkey09]

To continue, I would consider those morons who try to complete all the 8000m peaks in a single season the absolute zenith of this phenomenon.

[Droyd]

I hope that makes some sort of sense.

Without wishing to be too glib, it seems like the thing that has "changed outdoor climbing" for you is, somewhat bizarrely, not changes in the behaviour of other people who are climbing outdoors, but the fact that other people are climbing indoors, and approach that with a different set of values to the ones you have when you climb outdoors. Which seems a bit weird.

To me they're basically completely different things that have some overlap in terms of the skills and physiological adaptations required to be successful, but for the most part have diverged and are continuing to - particularly in terms of what they provide the soul (i.e. moments among the timeless beauty of nature, feeling at one with the universe and having separated the superego and the id in order to commune with the pure challenge of raging up the proj vs. slapping about on pink blobs like an idiot) - to the extent that I don't really see how one affects the other. Obviously that's leaving aside what happens when people who have come up in indoor walls treat crags in the same way (littering, misuse of chalk, etc.), but then I really can't imagine that anyone who has done or might do this Depot challenge has or will ever climb on rock, at least regularly.

So how does that affect you?

[joel182]

Can we get a list of which challenges in climbing are arbitrary and which aren't? Bit concerned that my trips to my local limestone bouldering venue aren't going to get ethics committee approval and I'll have to buy a bike

[spidermonkey09]

All challenges are arbitrary, but ones involving a time limit particularly so. Indeed, a lot of bouldering is arbitrary too; I don't like eliminates and most sit starts either!

Obviously everyone is free to do as they wish with their time, just as I am free to think people willingly spending 6 hours in the car driving around the UK to climb on impermanent plastic are totally mental. 

I agree with Droyd that there is increasingly little to no overlap between indoor climbing culture and outdoor climbing culture. They've been near enough separate sports for ages but they shared a common culture, which I think is fracturing if not already gone. Prob no bad thing in lots of ways because as you say each group doesn't affect the other negatively the majority of the time.

[Dingdong]

I hope that makes some sort of sense.

So how does that affect you?

It doesn’t but otherwise what else would he post about on UKB? I’ve never seen someone be so miserable about something that has no bearing on their life  imagine giving a shit about people climbing indoors lmao

[SA Chris]

To continue, I would consider those morons who try to complete all the 8000m peaks in a single season the absolute zenith of this phenomenon.

Add in surfers who fly halfway around the world based on a forecast of good conditions that will last for 2 or 3 days.

[jwi]

I am trying to find Alex Huber's magnificent rant about what he thinks about climbers who do N routes of grade X instead of a hard route. Cannot find it. Any ideas? (Worst possible case is that I read it on paper somewhere).

[abarro81]

I don't think I've ever read it, but - assuming Huber had contempt for those just doing lots of routes below their max rather than putting time into something hard - I've definitely read Andrada espousing just the opposite view (i.e. that it's a bit pathetic when people just siege hard routes but are terrible at onsights, flashes and quick ticks). Fight! Fight! Fight! 

[spidermonkey09]

I would watch a fight between Huber and Andrada.

[Wellsy]

The idea that people climbing loads of problems at the Depot negatively impacts outdoor climbing or is somehow inherently lesser is just big ol jokes

What happens is that, as always, someone spots some people harmlessly having fun the wrong way (The Wrong Way!!!!!), but knows that they can't just sneer at it for being stupid and wrong, so they make up a load of cobblers about how look I like indoor climbing and I have done it and some of my best friends are indoor climbers etc but in some way the soul, the essence of climbing has been bismirched by these people doing this thing in the Depot

And as always it's like lol okay then but also so what

This post meant in good wholesome banter-y manners

[Oldmanmatt]

Wow.
Reading this thread, it’s almost like we’re all different.
See things differently, even enjoy or hate different parts of the same things.

Wow.

Who knew.

[teestub]

All challenges are arbitrary, but ones involving a time limit particularly so. Indeed, a lot of bouldering is arbitrary too; I don't like eliminates and most sit starts either!

Just bouldering? not the routes cheek by cheek at sports cliffs or Stanage, or routes where you do a few moves of new climbing to link two exiting routes 

I think the impact of these things should just be considered in terms of carbon, and someone doing this challenge would only be driving 250 miles or so dependent on where they live, so no different from a weekend trip to N Wales and substantially less than a sunny sport climbing trip to Spain.

[spidermonkey09]

Haha touché! Yeah, it's all arbitrary and obviously not just bouldering. But I don't think it's unreasonable to suggest that these things are on a spectrum, no? It's obviously a matter of opinion but it's not an unreasonable view to hold.

I take your point about impact, but the end result of this line of argument is surely there is no point having an opinion about anything cause there is always something worse? Seems to miss the point. Also for me, for the reasons I argued above, there is a big difference in terms of between a holiday or weekend away and a 24 hour challenge in terms of memories/happiness. But as I also said, if doing this challenge makes people happy then fair enough, but it's also fair enough to think it's dumb.

[Wellsy]

I would watch a fight between Huber and Andrada.

100%

[teestub]

I take your point about impact, but the end result of this line of argument is surely there is no point having an opinion about anything cause there is always something worse? Seems to miss the point.

I was just trying to frame in in terms of overall 'harm' I guess, as in if it's not causing anyone else harm let them crack on with what they find fun. It's not outside the realms of what a lot of people would get up to in a weekend in terms of travel, whether that's driving to dry rock, to watch sport, have a city break or whatever and as such I don't have an issue with it in those terms.

Where and from what people derive value is deeply personal, and I don't think any of our pasttimes have more intrinsic value than others really. I can imagine doing something like this with a crew if that's what you were into could form some great memories.

[SA Chris]

I would watch a fight between Huber and Andrada.

100%

Even in Plasticine form. Bring back Celebrity Death Match.

[Will Hunt]

I hope that makes some sort of sense.

So how does that affect you?

It doesn’t

I agree with Droyd that there is increasingly little to no overlap between indoor climbing culture and outdoor climbing culture.

I don't agree. The Indoors (maybe it's Indoors/Bouldering) tendency has entered rock climbing and has changed it quite a bit. Some examples:
The perception of quality has changed from how I perceive it. It's obviously a personal thing, and that's fine, but it's becoming increasingly mainstream to think of eliminates/dabby moves/lowball arse-scrapers etc as having equal potential for quality as their opposites.

People are more likely to define a climb by its sequence than by its line. For instance that hoo-ha about The Prow at Kyloe. I definitely get that Franco shouldn't have said he'd climbed The Prow 8A but I think he had a point that he'd climbed the prow. A better example is when people ask at sport climbing crags whether a hold is in or not. Like, yeah, duh!

I don't remember anybody giving nearly as much of a shit about dabbing as they seem to now. The dab thread on here is tremendous fun and some of those people are absolutely bang to rights, but sometimes it goes too far. There was that bloke who did a hard thing and scuffed his foot on a tree as he topped out. I couldn't believe that people actually thought that invalidated what he'd just done.

On that highballing thread we had a while ago I thought it was strange how style was deemed to have no worth, because in indoor climbing/bouldering getting to the top was all that mattered. This is contrary to my experience of climbing.


So that's a few examples. However, that's just my perspective. Some people who started sport climbing in earnest earlier than I did will probably see my pre-clipping of two bolts as a loss to the game. We don't tell each other that The Leader Shall Not Fall any more. I bet there were people in the 70s who felt like something had been lost because you could now fall off without dying. As I said before, time and tide wait for nobody, but it still baffles me that people have to film EVERYTHING now.

[petejh]

The ‘leader must not fall’ still often applies when ice climbing especially when it’s less than vertical, which is most ice climbing. Not because you’ll die - because the ice screw you placed in ok ice will probably hold - but because you’ll probably break you ankle/leg when you stop in crampons. Will should take it up to get the fuzzy feeling of worthiness. Warm jumpers for goalposts.

This is a complete straw man as far as I'm concerned. Doing a journey repeatedly for something which makes them happy (fishing, climbing, even shooting wild animals as per SA Chris' example), and gives joy every time it is done is different. These activities have value beyond the arbitrariness of an invented challenge. This would be the same for people who invented an arbitrary challenge about outdoor climbing as well. It's nothing against indoor climbing, it's a philosophical position taken against arbitrary challenges. If people want to do them then biking is clearly the way to go and keep them localised (London walls, Yorkshire crags, welsh 3 peaks etc).

This idea interests me because I honestly have difficulty seeing any difference in arbitrariness or value between any leisure activity. You projecting a lifetime goal route on your lifetime goal crag is no more ot less arbitrary to me than you dicking around trying to do the three peaks in a diving helmet whilst juggling plates. I mean that sincerely, it’s all arbitrary imo, and none of us are doing anything more important than anyone else, except perhaps in our own inner worlds and whoever’s gullible enough to be convinced by us.

[lukeyboy]

It's all fucking pointless isn't it

[NaoB]

What separates the Depot challenge from things like the 3 peaks is that your achievement would vanish after a reset. Maybe it should be done every month???!

[petejh]

Impermanence doesn’t imo change the relative value of an activity.

Alberto Tomba won multiple Olympic, World Cup and world championship skiing titles. Is his choice of activity somehow leas worthy (than what..) because those slalom courses no longer exist.

[Droyd]

Will, I agree with you insofar as all of the things that you’ve listed a) can probably be linked back to indoor walls and b) aren’t positive developments in relation to the values I have in my own climbing. But I still don’t see how they affect your climbing, i.e. what you do when you have a day off work or family commitments and head out to the crag yourself.

I’ve made this point before on here, with regard to calling people out for dabbing: why does what other people do (or fail to do) affect your enjoyment of your hobby, assuming they don’t do anything that damages the rock, affects access, or have any other tangible impact on the physical world? To me it’s really similar to the people on UKC that get wound up about other people headpointing things that they themselves wouldn’t headpoint, in that I can understand how it doesn’t fit with their values but am totally baffled as to why they think they have a say in how other people spend their time, and completely fail to understand how it detracts from their experiences of onsighting things/not headpointing things.

So to clarify my question of 'how does that affect you?' a little: even if the ratty indoor mindset has corroded the soul of outdoor climbing such that everyone else is now scrapping their way up overhyped and overgraded dabby things that they didn’t even do the hard moves on because they crouch started them all, what does that take away from you? If people are putting up garbage sit-starts and then spraying about them on social media and giving them five stars, how does that prevent you from ego-lessly bricking it on your HVS at the Roaches, or lessen your enjoyment?

Just to add: not intended to be a moralising, 'gotcha' thing, although it reads a bit that way. Genuinely interested!

[Will Hunt]

John Donne has the answer.
No man is an island entire of itself; every man is a piece of the continent, a part of the main; if a clod be washed away by the sea, Europe is the less, as well as if a promontory were, as well as any manner of thy friends or of thine own were; any man's death diminishes me, because I am involved in mankind.
And therefore never send to know for whom the bell tolls; it tolls for thee.


There's no denying that climbing can be individualistic, but I have always experienced it as something with a very strong sense of community.

I'm not asking you to agree with me, but do you understand my point of view?

[Fiend]

Imagine you've pulled up to a crag, parked neatly, are packing your pads ready to walk in, and someone trots along the road next to you, stops right in front of you, and does a massive rancid, post-curry, steaming dump on the road, that whilst it doesn't get in the way of the walk-in at all, doesn't actually impinge on your climbing plans, is done right in full, unavoidable view, so the manure-fountain is indelibly seared into your retina...


THAT is  other people headpointing things that they themselves wouldn’t headpoint / everyone else is now scrapping their way up overhyped and overgraded dabby things that they didn’t even do the hard moves on because they crouch started them all / putting up garbage sit-starts and then spraying about them on social media and giving them five stars. With that sodding indoor-wank filming wooden pedestal thing jabbed in it like a flake in crapnetto.

[Droyd]

Really lovely use of quotation, thanks Will. I understand the feeling you have ('climbing' as a whole changing and being something that I increasingly struggle to recognise) but not the response to it (this being something to be addressed by taking the piss out of 'London climbers' as an imagined community that is responsible for this change).

Ultimately I think we agree that the things you're talking about are antithetical to the values we hold in climbing (which I think are really similar), so maybe the thing we disagree regarding is just who to blame and whether it's worth fighting. To my mind the issue isn't clueless Londoners applying their hipster sensibilities and massive disposable incomes to climbing, but the people who shape those clueless Londoners into climbers whose values clash with ours - i.e. wall owners and climbing-specific media and product and service companies who focus on metrics, success, and profit above quality and sustainability of experience.

And Fiend, I love extended metaphors about shit as much as anyone, but I'm not convinced that that's anything beyond ‘my brand of pointless fun is subjectively better than your brand of pointless fun’, in which case (turd emojis notwithstanding) it's not that valuable a contribution.

Anyway, this is a long way from The Three Seven Depots Challenge, so enough from me.