[User deactivated.]

I've been quite inspired by some of Dan Varian's comments (I forget whether it was the Jam Crack or Lattice podcast), which were based around the idea of (paraphrasing) achieving perfection on his ascent of Bombadil. This is in the sense that it required 100% of his perceived physical and mental effort and everything had to be executed perfectly with no reserve. I understood it to be as hard as he could have possibly climbed at that time.

This is something that I'm looking for in my own climbing. The grade is unimportant, but I would like to experience moments where I climb as well as I possibly could, where any mistake or lack of complete focus means not completing the climb. This is not necessarily a siege, or a once in a lifetime accomplishment, it could also be achieved with a hard flash or session project. It's also not necessarily as hard as you will ever climb - you might improve in future! It's perfection or excellence in the moment.

I'm wondering if others have achieved something like this in their own climbing? Is anyone else joining this quest?

[Carliios]

Is this not what others refer to as flow? I’ve found it happen on some boulders at my limit where I totally blank out and only realise where I am once I’ve topped a line, mostly during stuff I’ve been working on for multiple sessions. If you’ve ever experienced flow like that I’d say you’re quite close to what Dan is talking about in achieving a perfect send, one where all your other senses switch off and you float through something that’s hard for you.

[abarro81]

I would argue that it's almost impossible to achieve perfection in a flash or onsight try, or even in a single session send, or anything other than a fairly long project, but perhaps that's because I'm more thinking about this as a route climber. I can't conceive of ever having an onsight or flash try where everything is 100% perfect the whole way, and I say that as someone who has put quite a bit of effort into trying to onsight hard, and with some of my best ever performances being onsighting/flashing. That said, there are plenty of times where I feel I've climbed something as well as I could hope to, which on anything longer is as good as you're gonna get IMO, certainty without putting a lot of sessions in to a single objective...

I guess I would view perfection and flow as very different things (for starters I can hit what I would consider a "flow" state and then fall off); the latter is a lot more attainable than the former! But perhaps that's just semantics. Interestingly, what I think Dan was describing was being "at your limit", and I know what he means like that, but your realistic limit is maybe not 100% perfection IMO

[Fiend]

Reply to OP: Not in terms of difficulty, no.

[moose]

This is an issue that's interests me - as while I am objectively crap, I do love a siege. I have really worked certain projects but always felt slightly let down at the end; each success had a taint of lost perfection.

My hardest redpoints all occurred in subpar conditions, sometimes slightly hungover or fatigued. They all involved early footslips and fumbles and success was more due to bloody minded refusal to have to try again than attainment of "flow". No Zen state of perfect emptiness and immersion in the sequence. More a constant, internal voice, screaming "fuck, fuck, fuck, don't fall, don't fuck it up, fuck, fuck". The immediate reaction was always joy but later I would think, if I sent under those conditions, why not earlier, and should I have aimed higher - chosen a project that would allow no mistakes?

One day I might feel the flow and experience contentment with how I moved and how I felt. But then, "flow" sounds near to "easeful", and would that be hard and nasty enough to be truly satisfying?  I guess the ideal is flow but under tremendous tension - trammelled into a space where physical demand requires kinaesthetic beauty. That sounds like a never ending life time quest. I reckon I might have had already experienced it for a crux sequence / boulder problem but it was too brief to persist in my memory.

[cheque]

Climbing perfectly is pretty easy to do- you repeatedly climb something that’s within your abilities until you have the optimal way to climb it wired. I used to solo the same circuit of routes at the same crag multiple times at least once a week and I know I was climbing them perfectly because I knew all the ways to get up (and these were really pretty easy routes so there were a variety of ways) and had refined it to the most efficient way down to exactly where I was placing my feet etc. I filmed myself doing multiple ascents of one of the routes from different angles and there was nothing to choose between the takes.

People who always warm up on the same route at a sport crag where they’ve had long term projects will probably have the same thing going. After I photographed Shark on Consenting at Malham seven years ago I asked him to estimate how many times he’d been up it and he reckoned about 800 times… you’ll have refined your sequence quite well by that point I expect!

Sounds like you’re (Liam) talking about not only climbing something perfectly but climbing something at your limit perfectly though? Like Barrows I’m sceptical as to whether that’s even possible and also as to how you’d even know if you’d done it? I think by definition if you can climb something perfectly then you could climb something harder imperfectly.

[chrisbrooke]

I’d agree that it’s an inspiring idea, and something to aspire to. It’ll obviously mean different absolute levels of difficulty to different people, but sounds more like a very subjective experience of maximum effort.
I’ve never got anywhere close, and while I do often get moments of satisfaction, I more often default to ‘well, if I could climb it, it can’t be hard’ which I then carry to the next project…and the next….
I’ve never climbed anything hard but I love the idea of aspiring to that ‘100% mental and physical effort’ endeavour. Sounds likely to leave a more long lasting sense of fulfilment.

[User deactivated.]

I think this best sums up what I'm looking for at present:

a very subjective experience of maximum effort.

The closest I've got to this has been on a board, where I have the luxury of being able to set a sequence of moves at my limit. I haven't achieved complete 'perfection' yet as I can't recall any problems where 100% precision was needed with no room for readjusting on holds. The non-uniformity of rock probably lends itself better to this.

Sounds like you’re (Liam) talking about not only climbing something perfectly but climbing something at your limit perfectly though? Like Barrows I’m sceptical as to whether that’s even possible and also as to how you’d even know if you’d done it? I think by definition if you can climb something perfectly then you could climb something harder imperfectly.

My take on this is different. It's not that I want to add perfect movement to something at my limit; I want the moves to be so difficult for me that they require it.

[teestub]

My take on this is different. It's not that I want to add perfect movement to something at my limit; I want the moves to be so difficult for me that they require it.

I get this, I think there’s a few different sorts of perfection being talked about here. You’re talking about the perfection of having to hit every handhold and foot hold mm perfect and hold every body position exactly right, otherwise you’re back on the mat. Cheque’s perfection is similar but these easier routes don’t require that perfection to be completed (otherwise you probably wouldn’t be soloing them!) but it can still be found there, and practicing being precise on easier climbs is probably a great way to make sure you can do it when trying hard.

[Hoseyb]

I think the closest I have got to this so far was on the 'red mist' section on The Tosheroon. This was the crux section of a long offwidth that I had worked on and off for many years. I knew what I had to do but couldn't work out the movement that linked two body positions.
Success came in a moment of Wolverine like beserker rage, so to this day I still don't know quite what I did.

It's still only partial attainment I'd say though. As although I had to perform at my physical, technical and tactical limit, psychologically I was not in control.

[abarro81]

My take on this is different. It's not that I want to add perfect movement to something at my limit; I want the moves to be so difficult for me that they require it.

I get this

I also get this, but don't think it's viable without a bit of a siege. Also, I think the more moves the piece of climbing is, the harder it is to achieve perfection (if only due to probability), especially in a small number of sessions, though it may be easier to achieve a feeling of perfection, because flowing through easier moves is actually a weird balance of striving for perfection while prioritising speed and flowyness over doing each move with 100% perfection. Perhaps you could argue that the balance of accuracy of movement/body position and speed is actually part of "perfection" but basically I feel like this whole discussion is a rabbit hole of semantics so I'll stop there 

Anyway, I've definitely come down from things and thought I climbed pretty much perfectly, and

as well as I possibly could

... and done many many things where I was close enough to my limit to think I should have fallen, but I don't think I've ever truly climbed perfectly, and certainly many of what I would consider my best performances in climbing were imperfect in some way but that in no way dented the experience for me. Requiring true perfection, IMO, would mean having to hit the point of bashing your head against a wall in an endless siege of a length I'm not sure I could muster.

Basically I just spent 5 minutes writing that I think the goal is really "as well as you possible could" [given the context], but this is actually not perfection as that's almost unattainable. For me anyway.

[Bradders]

One day I might feel the flow and experience contentment with how I moved and how I felt. But then, "flow" sounds near to "easeful", and would that be hard and nasty enough to be truly satisfying? 

This is something I have consistently pursued in my climbing and I absolutely find it to be one of the most satisfying feelings in climbing; taking something that once felt impossible / really hard and making it feel easy when you finally do it. I would say on almost all of my hardest ascents there was a significant element of this. I've never been one for a massive battle on any particular go, I want it to feel easy.

In some ways I think this holds me back as well, it's good to be able to dig in and fight.

a very subjective experience of maximum effort.

Yes this 100%. And I think perfection isn't necessarily solely related to physically moving on rock, it could subjectively include many different aspects of going climbing.

I can think of several examples where everything just went perfectly that day. It does just so happen that one of those also featured my on paper hardest boulder problem, but genuinely the day I did this everything was perfect. I felt amazing, I'd rested and prepared perfectly, there was great chat at the crag with a big team of talented climbers, most of whom I burnt off, I did the stand quickly in a complete flow state (I literally felt like I executed perfectly and woke up at the top), then the sit shortly after. Watching the video back I think I achieved about as close as I can get to perfection on the lower section, shame it all went a bit to pot higher up but at least I didn't fall off!

[teestub]

Also, I think the more moves the piece of climbing is, the harder it is to achieve perfection (if only due to probability), especially in a small number of sessions, though it may be easier to achieve a feeling of perfection, because flowing through easier moves is actually a weird balance of striving for perfection while prioritising speed and flowyness over doing each move with 100% perfection. Perhaps you could argue that the balance of accuracy of movement/body position and speed is actually part of "perfection" but basically I feel like this whole discussion is a rabbit hole of semantics so I'll stop there 

Yeah totally I think the archetype of perfection I’m thinking about probably only really exists on short boulders. Successful hard repoints look (from my comfortable bouldering pad) to be more about operating within an acceptable error margin which stops you getting too pumped, with perhaps only that ‘precision perfection’ saved for the cruxy bits.

A very strong climbing memory of mine is flashing Coffee Cup in Leavenworth, which is only 2 moves, and the moves feeling exactly how I imagined they would feel, feeling maybe I was actually ok at climbing for a minute or so 😂

[User deactivated.]

Watching the video back I think I achieved about as close as I can get to perfection on the lower section, shame it all went a bit to pot higher up but at least I didn't fall off!

Brilliant vid! It's clear how totally locked in your movement was.

I've seen a few videos of the stand and everyone seems to make a hash of the top, despite it looking a bit easier up there. Is it just awkward and you don't get to work it as much?

[User deactivated.]

Also, I think the more moves the piece of climbing is, the harder it is to achieve perfection (if only due to probability), especially in a small number of sessions, though it may be easier to achieve a feeling of perfection, because flowing through easier moves is actually a weird balance of striving for perfection while prioritising speed and flowyness over doing each move with 100% perfection. Perhaps you could argue that the balance of accuracy of movement/body position and speed is actually part of "perfection" but basically I feel like this whole discussion is a rabbit hole of semantics so I'll stop there 

Yeah totally I think the archetype of perfection I’m thinking about probably only really exists on short boulders. Successful hard repoints look (from my comfortable bouldering pad) to be more about operating within an acceptable error margin which stops you getting too pumped, with perhaps only that ‘precision perfection’ saved for the cruxy bits.

A very strong climbing memory of mine is flashing Coffee Cup in Leavenworth, which is only 2 moves, and the moves feeling exactly how I imagined they would feel, feeling maybe I was actually ok at climbing for a minute or so 😂

Short problems align with my aesthetic sensibilities. Achieving a subjective experience of maximum effort and performance on something that resembles a poor mans Burden of Dreams would be the ideal, but thankfully not essential as these are in short supply. I think I would be satisfied with moments where I achieve this state for a few moves, e.g. the crux section.

Looking back, I did have an out of body experience a couple of years ago on The Drey at Caley. This is a decent problem, but not a classic by any means, so my experience was predominantly due to the difficulty (this problem was my max level at the time) and setting. It was when I'd first started going out with lamps and it felt novel to be climbing alone in the woods at night, and I think this added something. I finally did it during a daytime session, but I experienced watching myself go through the moves in a 3rd person perspective (i'd only had psychedelic induced experiences like this) before finding myself at the top, unsure whether I'd started from the bottom or whether it was a working go. Fortunately, I had recorded a video to confirm, and I did execute the moves particularly well. Shame I didn't experience it in the first person, but an interesting experience nonetheless!

[Fiend]

I think the closest I have got to this so far was on the 'red mist' section on The Tosheroon. This was the crux section of a long offwidth that I had worked on and off for many years. I knew what I had to do but couldn't work out the movement that linked two body positions.
Success came in a moment of Wolverine like beserker rage, so to this day I still don't know quite what I did.

Sounds exactly what LH89 is after, he should definitely get on it 

[turnipturned]

'Perfection is a concept which originates in the dualistic nature of our minds. If we were not constantly comparing things, the concept of imperfection would not exist, and therefore the concept of perfection would not exist either'.

If you are searching for perfection you will for ever be disappointed as ultimately you can only perform within the bounds of your own potential. Moreover, what you might consider as 'perfection' in the specific moment, overtime will become a fabricated memory which is influenced by thought, emotions and external factors. (Not a criticism, just human nature, but I am sure your Drey story and Dan's bombadli story is a fabrication of what actually happened).

Therefore you should chase, maximum potential and be content in the fact you can control the controllable.

[SA Chris]

What if you are giving 110%

[User deactivated.]

'Perfection is a concept which originates in the dualistic nature of our minds. If we were not constantly comparing things, the concept of imperfection would not exist, and therefore the concept of perfection would not exist either'.

If you are searching for perfection you will for ever be disappointed as ultimately you can only perform within the bounds of your own potential. Moreover, what you might consider as 'perfection' in the specific moment, overtime will become a fabricated memory which is influenced by thought, emotions and external factors. (Not a criticism, just human nature, but I am sure your Drey story and Dan's bombadli story is a fabrication of what actually happened).

Therefore you should chase, maximum potential and be content in the fact you can control the controllable.

Food for thought, thanks.

Initially, the fabrication comment irked me. I did have to check the video, but I suppose I didn't actually view myself climbing in the 3rd person, as that is impossible, even if it felt like that in the moment. Philosophically, I consider that everything I experience is a fabrication due to the effects of dualism, but I can usually ignore that on a day-to-day basis.

I note that other posters have written about flow. When starting the thread, I didn't consider my original idea to be the same thing as flow, but it probably is, just with added criteria. I haven't done much reading on flow, but wouldn't be surprised if there's a component of temporary oneness.

[36chambers]

This is in the sense that it required 100% of his perceived physical and mental effort and everything had to be executed perfectly with no reserve. I understood it to be as hard as he could have possibly climbed at that time.

This is something that I'm looking for in my own climbing. The grade is unimportant, but I would like to experience moments where I climb as well as I possibly could, where any mistake or lack of complete focus means not completing the climb.

I pretty much feel like I achieve this whenever I climb a 6 something slab in Font

[chrisbrooke]

With more reflection I’m not sure I could achieve this. On the occasions I’ve done something hard (for me) that required maximal effort, paradoxically it doesn’t necessarily feel hard. I’m sure we’ve all had this experience: you try a move 20-30-40 times, it feels impossible. The 41st time you latch it just right, a few seconds later you’re at the top. Maybe the wind is blowing the right amount in the right direction, your skin is just right, maybe your body position is imperceptibly in just the perfect position…. You’ve just done the hardest move of your life, but you’ve no idea what was different this time, and it felt fairly straightforward….. oh well, couldn’t have been that hard, on to the next….
Maybe that’s more a gritstone thing?

Anyway, just highlighting the paradox between the hardest thing, and the perception of hardest effort. Hope it translated.

[Hoseyb]

Does anyone else's internal reading voice always switch to Deadpool when reading "Maximum effort"?

[mrjonathanr]

Never had the pleasure myself (must try harder  ) but was interested to read the comments about seeming to see yourself from the outside. A mate told me exactly this, how he seemed to be observing himself on a l particularly challenging (and successful) redpoint from about 15’ up and behind whilst he climbed. Curious.

[Shy Ted]

I’ve always thought that it’s impossible to climb perfectly. You could’ve always placed your foot perfectly first time rather than having to readjust or rotate your foot a smidge to get better purchase. Same goes for hand placements. But then again I’m primarily a route climber and not operating at the top level. Guess it could be different on top end boulders

[Wellsy]

I have not achieved perfection in climbing but I have achieved euphoria and I've definitely done things and thought "I could not have tried harder" which is a savage joy in of itself

[Offwidth]

This long buried gem has some old school pondering on related themes (thanks due to Uncle Derek for the spot)

https://bbcrewind.co.uk/asset/600eb7b53a53aa002791fbac?q=climbing

[jwi]

I am very sceptical that perfect movement can be achieved in climbing, even on stuff that is relatively easy to climb.

Even on musical instruments perfection is extremely hard to achieve—even for professionals who can practice insane hours per day as they don't fatigue much playing their instruments. There is almost no studio recording of a longer musical piece that is not a mixture of several different performances of the same piece, and in the case of non-fretted instruments like the violin you can be pretty sure that pitch correcting software has been applied to the signal, even on the performances by the greatest musicians alive.

[Johnny Brown]

You need to come soloing with me at Stanage sometime jwi.

But seriously, if we define perfection as unattainable then I think that maybe isn't a very useful definition. An analogy: if you watch Ronnie complete the fastest ever 147 you could find the odd point where shots dould have been executed better. But you could argue those mistakes force harder shots which actually raise the overall level of performance, which is the greatest there's ever been. Is that not therefore perfection? And, crucially, he never runs out of position, which is not a pinpoint thing but continually putting yourself in a position you can work with. I think these ideas transfer to climbing quite well.

Personally I find onsight performances the most satisfying because they involve creativity which adds a dimension. So rather than nit-picking  precision on a redpoint, for which the music analogy above is appropriate (jazz aside obvs), you can take a broader view that consistently hitting the sequences right first time and never running out of position or even climbing yourself out of an error is a thing close to perfection, by which I mean like Ronnie it may not have been bettered.

I'd also add that an important dimension was missed from the OP, which was that Varian did not simply find a problem that tested him to the utmost, it was a new problem at a crag he has largely developed himself, in his extended backyard. In the interview I think it's clear those are as important to his idea of perfection as the technical challenge.

[SA Chris]

here's perfection on a par with Ronnie.

[Fiend]

That's a beauty!

You need to come soloing with me at Stanage sometime jwi.

I was chatting to someone the other day and the conclusion was that you are basically an almost pure board climber, the only difference being your "board" is slabbier and made of out gritstone 

[jwi]

You need to come soloing with me at Stanage sometime jwi.

I'd love to. Seriously.