[T Nagler]

The only harder A levels are Music, Maths, Physics

nice, all the ones i did.

You forget further maths though. thats is/was the hardest a-level.

True.  That A-level is something elce! Normal maths is hard enough (I started the course but it took over my life, so I dropped it!)!  btw maths has apparently been made easyer this year (since the summer) due to the introduction of non-calculator modules/papers! Which I believe my school is now doing insted of pure maths!

Also, I should say that their may be other A levels harder than PE, but this is just the concencus impression we get at our school from other students and teachers.

[hongkongstuey]

btw maths has apparently been made easyer this year

of course, they're all a lot easier than they were 10 years back...      :wink:

[DrWong]

Trev,

Climbing (or specifically bouldering on plastic) is obviously something you deem yourself reasonablly good at when compared to the rest of the population of students doing this subject as an A level. It is therefore safe to say that if a "practical test of preformance" based on this criteria was part of your curriculum you would expect do well. Is your argument not tainted by this desire to maximise your advantage?

Climbing as a sport is not condusive to the measurement that you can attribute to  "mainstream" sports. You can easily compare the performance of 2 or more people running a distance (say 100m) because a 100m distance is a static known constant. Any enviromental variables such as wind etc. are small and can in most cases limited or taken into account in some way.

Even if you were to agree that the basis of your assessment should be a boulder problem as opposed to a sport route, a trad route or even a 4000m peak with technical ice, what constant do you use for a V9 F7c?

Should it be steep or slab? Limestone, granite, sandstone, grit or heaven forbid - slate? Should it have pockets or crimps, slopers or a crack? What kind of moves should it have - long and dynamic or short and bunched? What about other factors like weather conditions, friction, fall potential,  highball factor etc. etc. How many moves and how many technical cruxes should it have? Who do you get to determine the grade - I'm sure "Malcolm Smith" has long since lost the ability to distinguish between a V8,V9 or V10.

What you have touched on here is the grading debate. Grading is subjective. Way more subjective than "coiling a rope". To assume that the ability to climbed an "established" V12+ guarentees that will flash every V6 you jump on is foolish.  

Good comps work (there are many shit comps) because there are a range of problems of different styles that can divide the field somewhat fairly. That said doing well at comps does not convert to being a strong outdoor climber so unless the A level is for 'Competition Indoor Bouldering' your also outa luck

[T Nagler]

Climbing (or specifically bouldering on plastic) is obviously something you deem yourself reasonablly good at when compared to the rest of the population of students doing this subject as an A level. It is therefore safe to say that if a "practical test of preformance" based on this criteria was part of your curriculum you would expect do well. Is your argument not tainted by this desire to maximise your advantage?

"SamT wrote:after half an hour reading - Im with dylan on this one all the way.

Stop f**king whinging for christ sake.

[Whingy voice I have to learn how to coil a rope and put in Friends for my A level and I dont want too. [/whingy voice]

Boo f**cking Hoo my heart bleeds.

Kids these days


Me: Ok, that's not it at all! Firstly, I can coil a rope and put in friends (although I'll have to practice a bit)! Secondly: although I'm not as good at any other sports as I am at climbing, I could still get a good grade in a few other sports. And finally, even if the syllabus is changed it will be too late for me!

So please think about what you've just read with that in mind."
 
Also, I don't just climb on plastic. And I'm even better outdoors on some rock types than I am indoors.
 

Climbing as a sport is not condusive to the measurement that you can attribute to  "mainstream" sports. You can easily compare the performance of 2 or more people running a distance (say 100m) because a 100m distance is a static known constant. Any enviromental variables such as wind etc. are small and can in most cases limited or taken into account in some way.

Gymnastics? Diving? Even with sports like football, hockey, netball etc (all games in general) there is a subjective element to the assessment.

Even if you were to agree that the basis of your assessment should be a boulder problem as opposed to a sport route, a trad route or even a 4000m peak with technical ice, what constant do you use for a V9 F7c?

Assessments usually consists of several skills so there is no reason why it shouldn't consist of several of these. How you define a whether a climb is a certain grade or not is the biggest problem, its easier for GCSE level because you only have to climb about 5a!  I guess outdoors it would have to be a climb/problem that has had a certain number of repeats (e.g. 5), indoors it would have to be set by a BMC approved national or international standard route setter (obviously there is still room for subjectivity, but I feel that these controls would be enough when compared to other assessments).  

Should it be steep or slab? Limestone, granite, sandstone, grit or heaven forbid - slate? Should it have pockets or crimps, slopers or a crack? What kind of moves should it have - long and dynamic or short and bunched?

Doesn't matter. For example, a gymnast could get 9.75 with many different routines. As could a diver, and a figure skater.  Two footballers could get the same grade in this assessment even if one is a solid goal keeper and the other is a pacey forward. The student should be able to pick the climb.

What about other factors like weather conditions, friction,

These assessments are videoed in front of a PE teacher and sent off to the exam board, so you would have plenty of time to pick a good day.

fall potential,  highball factor etc. etc.

I would have thought that factors like these should be minimised for liability reasons.  As well as the fact that there hard to assess.

What you have touched on here is the grading debate. Grading is subjective. Way more subjective than "coiling a rope".

Whats the difference between an A* coiled rope and an A coiled rope? Yes a lot of it is likely to be "the right coil for the right situation" (Dylan 2004), but you're not going to get an A just for selecting the correct way to coil the rope!

To assume that the ability to climbed an "established" V12+ guarentees that will flash every V6 you jump on is foolish.  

You don't have to flash anything necessarily, its videoed, unless there is an assessment on flash/onsite ability.  Even if there was you could attempt several problems.

Good comps work (there are many shit comps) because there are a range of problems of different styles that can divide the field somewhat fairly. That said doing well at comps does not convert to being a strong outdoor climber so unless the A level is for 'Competition Indoor Bouldering' your also outa luck

So you agree that the indoor part of the assessment would work.  What do you think about what I've proposed for the outdoor parts?

[account_inactive]

Also, I don't just climb on plastic. And I'm even better outdoors on some rock types than I am indoors.

Big words

Gymnastics? Diving? Even with sports like football, hockey, netball etc (all games in general) there is a subjective element to the assessment.

Climbing grades are TOTALLY SUBJECTIVE. What else do you want the test to be on?

Climbing is not a sport.  An aspect of climbing is competitive. What you need to do is convince the exam board that they need to be testing climbing as a sport.  I spoke with Andy Reid at Mile End Yesterday, he's the CEO who has been in contact with the climbing element of GCSE P.E for the past God knows how many years.  He was of the same opinion.  It would not be practical to examine climbing as a performance sport.

[/quote]Doesn't matter. For example, a gymnast could get 9.75 with many different routines. As could a diver, and a figure skater. Two footballers could get the same grade in this assessment even if one is a solid goal keeper and the other is a pacey forward. The student should be able to pick the climb

I think you have missed the point.  The very honourable Dr Wong was explaining (I think) that there are too many variables. To spell that out for you :

Times the number of :

Types of Rock
by
Types of Move
by
Angles of Rock

Equals to many elements to give everyone an equal opportunity.
Have a think about the variables in gymnastics.  Now apply that to climbing.  See a difference?  

These assessments are videoed in front of a PE teacher and sent off to the exam board, so you would have plenty of time to pick a good day.

Does this happen for the other sports?  Lets hope its a better summer that this year then.

You don't have to flash anything necessarily, its videoed, unless there is an assessment on flash/onsite ability. Even if there was you could attempt several problems.

Opps!  Theres another variable to add.  That list is getting long :cry:

So you agree that the indoor part of the assessment would work. What do you think about what I've proposed for the outdoor parts?

No Trevor that not what he did.  It seems to me that he was explain how hard it is to have a wide range of testing in an establised part of competitive climbing.  That is not what a-levels are about.  Level playing field and all that.

This is getting boring now

[webbo]

i reckon you could have done your assessments twice over in the time you've spent posting on here. :wink:

[DrWong]

Fistly I would like to congratulate myself on my choice of Avatar. I find the image utterly disturbing – second only to the one of a certain anal prolapse which I followed from this forum. I see that Dylan is trying to top me though.

But I digress…

Trev, you are right that there is a subjective element to the assessment of performance in a lot sports. You cite gynamastics and diving as examples. But even these examples great efforts are made to limit the subjective element to the judging of the aesthetic elements only. This subjectivity does not extend to the apparatus itself or the technical pre-requisites upon which the bulk of a score is based.

Rigid guidelines exist to ensure the correct assessment of both compulsory elements and subjective aesthetic impressions. Adherence to these guidelines is necessary to preserve the fundamental concept of fair play. Even this sometimes fails and we witnessed it first hand at the last Olympics, when a small degree subjective latitude opened the door to controversy in gymnastics.

To use the gymnastics analogy, a climbing assessment you describe - and I use the term climbing in the most universal understanding of the term - would be akin to a gymnastic floor event where competitors can compete on a random day of their choosing, at any venue they wish, on any surface they like whether it be a concrete slab, a regulation Olympic floor or a 30 ft inflatable jumping castle.

This hardly conforms to the principle of fair play, and I guess in an A level this principle would need to be considered sacrescent.

The problem is that Climbing (and again I use the universal understanding of the term) lacks the tools to create an objective framework conducive to assessment.

What we rely on in determining the difficulty of a particular climb is the first ascessionist's subjective assessment of how hard it was for him or her. Sure, over time a general consensus may be reached as more people attempt the climb but it will always, at best, be an approximation.

Even the first ascencionist's own impression of difficulty will vary over time. Varying according to the conditions on the day, fatigue from earlier activity, or how much he/she to drink the night before. This is further complicated by the fact that the harder you climb the more difficulty you will have in distinguishing the relative grade of climbs that are well below your limit.

A run down a 90m down a 10 degree slope (or conversely – a 110m run up a 10 degree incline) isn't a 100m dash, even if all the world's best 100m runners ran it and subjectively felt it was fairly close to 100m.

I accept that one aspect of climbing can be artificially moulded and distilled into a sport. This sub-discipline is competition climbing on plastic –and it applies equally to comp bouldering, difficulty or even speed. If synchoronised swimming is considered a sport (god knows how) then there is no reason why competition climbing can't be. (No offence to any synchonised swimmers out there - ie. Dylan – you do look cute in speedos though mate).

To ensure fairplay you would have to have every student assessed on the same route or ideally a range of routes and problems that tested a universally accepted range of skills and abilities. It then wouldn't matter about what ‘grade' the routes/problems are. Just the relative performance.

However is this climbing? Some purests would argue that pulling on plastic is no more climbing than pulling on a campus board. I personally think comp climbing is a good thing – it raises the profile of climbing and a legitimate pursuit. But I don't agree that it represents what climbing as a whole is all about. Certainly not enough to form the basis of an assessment of ability.

So my usually long winded drivel, the short answer to your question Trev is:

1. No, climbing can't be FAIRLY assessed in the way you describe
2. Yes, COMPETITIVE climbing can be fairly assessed but:
   A. Competitive climbing is only ONE SMALL PART of climbing.
   B. It would be logistically impossible to run a ‘climbing exam'        
       (essentially as massive comp) that would be fair

[T Nagler]

Ok, the gymnasts analogy is limited in relevance.  What about game sports (football, hockey, etc.)? You can achieve full marks as a goal keeper or as a striker (and every other position).  And from what I gather it doesn't have to be on a full sized pitch (football pitches vary in size anyway).  It also doesn't have to be on grass! I could be on tarmac, redgra (clay), astroturf etc.

Also, why would a climbing comp be logistically imposable?  There are probably less A level PE students that rock climb than there are competitors in the bicc and the bbc.  A lot of people would have to travel but this is normal in comps. Anyway, with the current syllabus I'll (and everybody who doesn't live near any rock) will have to travel.

"This hardly conforms to the principle of fair play, and I guess in an A level this principle would need to be considered sacrescent."

Yes and I live in London, is the current syllabus in keeping with fair play?

"To use the gymnastics analogy, a climbing assessment you describe - and I use the term climbing in the most universal understanding of the term - would be akin to a gymnastic floor event where competitors can compete on a random day of their choosing,"

Every sport can be assessed on a random day of you're choosing!
 
"at any venue they wish,"

Same with every other sport.

"on any surface they like whether it be a concrete slab, a regulation Olympic floor or a 30 ft inflatable jumping castle."

Not too different from most game sports (bar the 30ft inflateable jumping castle!).

"Sure, over time a general consensus may be reached as more people attempt the climb but it will always, at best, be an approximation."

Same as in gymnastics: a consensus is reached on how hard each move/skill is in order to determine the overall difficulty of the routine in order to give the starting value/score.

[T Nagler]

good point!

[Bonjoy]

Come back Mr Horse!
[marq=right][/marq]

[DrWong]

What about game sports (football, hockey, etc.)? You can achieve full marks as a goal keeper or as a striker (and every other position). And from what I gather it doesn't have to be on a full sized pitch (football pitches vary in size anyway). It also doesn't have to be on grass! I could be on tarmac, redgra (clay), astroturf etc.

No, but I take it the goal has to be a regulation size as does the ball.  I reckon even me, with my notorious lack of co-ordination could earn £20 million a year as a goal keeper for Real Madrid if the goal was 1m wide and the ball was the size of a beach ball.

The point is that the factors critical to performance for every single individual need to be fair. Its very hard to do this with the climbing assessment you describe.

Also, why would a climbing comp be logistically imposable? There are probably less A level PE students that rock climb than there are competitors in the bicc and the bbc. A lot of people would have to travel but this is normal in comps. Anyway, with the current syllabus I'll (and everybody who doesn't live near any rock) will have to travel.

Even if this was logistically possible would this be a good indicator of climbing ability? Doing well in a indoor comp does not qualify you for climbing outdoors let alone a big wall. I guess if you were going to go down this path a test of campus ability on 'regulation' rungs or timed deadhangs on 'regulation' crimps would be just as valid. But again would this be a true test of climbing (eg. the problem solving aspects, ability to control fear etc.)

Same as in gymnastics: a consensus is reached on how hard each move/skill is in order to determine the overall difficulty of the routine in order to give the starting value/score.

Yes but this works precisley because you are testing an individual move or skill, sure in the context of an overall aesthetic routine, but still assessing individual skills.

This doesn't translate well because performance in climbing is measured  in success or failure. There are no extra style points in climbing, You either tick or fail.  The technical wizard that completes a climb through a series of locks, drop knees and figure fours does no better than a 7ft monster who is weak as shit but is able to reach past the crux.

You made good points Trev, but my advice is that if a syllabus doesn't suit you - don't do the subject. You have the choice. Its tough that the subject that you have an interest in doesn't assess in a way that you like but that's life. I'm not sure how it works here but when I did my english HSC (eq. to A level) I wasn't able to choose freely which novel/drama/poet I wanted to study.

You ever thought of dropping climbing and going into debating? I think you have missed your calling.

[account_inactive]

I think maybe that Trev should try politics as repeating the same thing and being shown that your are wrong seems to be a pre-requisite.

If synchoronised swimming is considered a sport (god knows how) then there is no reason why competition climbing can't be. (No offence to any synchonised swimmers out there - ie. Dylan – you do look cute in speedos though mate

I think the word you are looking for mate is 'HOT'.

Be careful or I will get Lovejoy to post that infamous video sick boy :wink:

[Bonjoy]

Aaaah, the legendary Dr Wong video. For all our sakes I pray it never surfaces.

[DrWong]

For my sake I hope it never surfaces!

     

Or I will have to leve this country as well

[account_inactive]

This looks interesting http://www.oneshotproductions.bizland.com/wongton/

[DrWong]

hmmmm... close (disturbingly close) but no cigar

'tis hard being an amateur pr0n star