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What does a slash grade signify? (Read 7918 times)

spidermonkey09

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#25 Re: What does a slash grade signify?
August 22, 2022, 11:29:01 am
Agree with the point that grades are particularly nonsensical in bouldering for reasons of morphology etc. I just don't think the way to fix it is by introducing more uncertainty into the spectrum. What next, the slash slash grade? eg. 8B/8B+ / 8B+ ? I definitely don't think they're necessary in route grades.

I suppose what I'm saying is I don't think 8B is sufficiently near the cutting edge to need that grey area.

Wellsy

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#26 Re: What does a slash grade signify?
August 22, 2022, 11:35:30 am
I'm purely a boulderer and a bit of a wimp, and still in my apprenticeship, but my feeling is probably that the uncertainty is already there and either you attempt to grade in line with that, leading to increasingly fine granularity, or you try to make some hard grade boundaries and tell people to stick their neck out, so I suppose I'd agree with you

teestub

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#27 Re: What does a slash grade signify?
August 22, 2022, 11:49:30 am
I actually think power endurance problems grades are the only ones which make real sense.



Haha I kinda struggle with the grade of PE problems sometimes because they can feel easier once you develop the requisite fitness for them, and they are also prone to downgrade by sport climbers going bouldering 😄

Liamhutch89

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#28 Re: What does a slash grade signify?
August 22, 2022, 12:10:36 pm
When Aidan was talking about an 8B/+ in Switzerland he was doing the sit start to he said the consensus was the stand "occupied the grey area between 8B and 8B+" and so that to me means it isn't being used as a placeholder for a more accurate grade but rather as a specific grading in of itself

I think this interpretation is what Duma called 'balls,' and I agree. It might be plausible that at the absolute top end of the grading spectrum this grey area exists until further repeats take place, but 8B and 8B+ are middle of the road for elite bouldering these days, people need to just give it one or the other and move on.

I find Bouin's relentless sandbagging quite tedious, just give them all 9b+!

I find it hard to grade some problems with much precision at all, but for others I feel that I can be quite precise to the point that a middle ground can exist, even on modest stuff. I'm not sure what it is that differentiates these problems in their gradeability(?).

Obviously someone will disagree with every one of these, but here's a few examples of problems that to me felt right in the middle (hopefully some you may be familiar with):

Olicana Arete: 7A/+
Crusis (to the break): 7A+/B
Brass Monkeys: 7B+/C (felt between grades to me even with span)
Underhand Extension: 7B+/C








SA Chris

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#29 Re: What does a slash grade signify?
August 22, 2022, 12:18:35 pm
That must be a wafer thin grey area.

spidermonkey09

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#30 Re: What does a slash grade signify?
August 22, 2022, 12:21:13 pm
I agree theres a case to be made with some of them, I just have an objection out of principle with trying to be that accurate. Ultimately its an alphanumeric grading system for bits of rock which is already imprecise and as you say people will disagree with some problems or routes being given a slash grade as much as they did with them being given a proper grade. I would be much more in favour of people just saying what they think it is rather than hedging. All it will do is widen the spectrum in an attempt to find certainty that is doomed to fail for all the reasons discussed above.

Bradders

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#31 Re: What does a slash grade signify?
August 22, 2022, 05:06:34 pm
I find it hard to grade some problems with much precision at all, but for others I feel that I can be quite precise to the point that a middle ground can exist, even on modest stuff. I'm not sure what it is that differentiates these problems in their gradeability(?).

Obviously someone will disagree with every one of these, but here's a few examples of problems that to me felt right in the middle (hopefully some you may be familiar with):

Olicana Arete: 7A/+
Crusis (to the break): 7A+/B
Brass Monkeys: 7B+/C (felt between grades to me even with span)
Underhand Extension: 7B+/C

I reckon 36C is on the money here; if we're honest all of those are probably the lower of those two grades for the average person (and then trending higher the shorter you are).

I'm much more in favour of broadening the spectrum than refining it. So you'd say 7A / B rather than 7A+.

Fiend

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#32 Re: What does a slash grade signify?
August 22, 2022, 05:50:09 pm
I'm much more in favour of broadening the spectrum than refining it. So you'd say 7A / B rather than 7A+.
Now we're talking!!
(Otherwise I rather agree with Yetix)

sdm

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#33 Re: What does a slash grade signify?
August 22, 2022, 06:11:32 pm
Brass Monkeys: 7B+/C (felt between grades to me even with span)

At the risk of derailing, is this what others think for the grade of Brass Monkeys?

As someone who isn't particularly short but who cannot reach the span, and who is generally well suited to steep compression, I thought it felt like it would be very hard at 7C for someone who can't span it.

I only had one session so maybe I missed something/just needed to try harder?  :shrug:

In the same session, I saw 3 taller gentlemen (all comfortably over 6ft) do Brass Monkeys quite quickly. I also saw them try plenty of other problems around 7Aish that day, and none of them were close to doing any of them.

spidermonkey09

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#34 Re: What does a slash grade signify?
August 22, 2022, 06:52:45 pm
 Spanny compression problems are particularly hard to grade. Eg I can't even pull onto the Alliance which is allegedly 7A, if I ever get up it will be at least 7C I reckon! Giving it a slash grade of 7A/C might be stretching Bradders model slightly.

Bradders

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#35 Re: What does a slash grade signify?
August 22, 2022, 07:26:08 pm
Haha yes, slightly stretching things there.

Although when I said this:

you'd say 7A / B rather than 7A+.

I should have said you'd say 7A / B rather than 7A, 7A+ or 7B. I.e. things are low 7s, mid 7s or high 7s. And Brass Monkeys would be a classic easier high 7.

abarro81

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#36 Re: What does a slash grade signify?
August 22, 2022, 07:38:06 pm
Except "easier high 7"  is exactly the same as 7C assuming you're on a scale of "low" "mid" and high" with easier/harder within each category... so you didn't get anywhere

duncan

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#37 Re: What does a slash grade signify?
August 22, 2022, 09:07:03 pm
I gave it* E4/5 because it wasn’t that long and it had a fixed wire but really it was an expression of guilt, a way of expressing all these mixed emotions [about the ethics of it].

Dave Cuthbertson, OTE 41

Slash grades: an indicator of mental state.

*Wild Country (now E6).

Bradders

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#38 Re: What does a slash grade signify?
August 22, 2022, 09:40:56 pm
Except "easier high 7"  is exactly the same as 7C assuming you're on a scale of "low" "mid" and high" with easier/harder within each category... so you didn't get anywhere

Ha well I did think of saying mid 7 but that would include 7B, whereas I would say easier high 7 could reasonably include 7B+.

cheque

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#39 Re: What does a slash grade signify?
August 23, 2022, 08:45:05 am
I saw 3 taller gentlemen (all comfortably over 6ft) do Brass Monkeys quite quickly. I also saw them try plenty of other problems around 7Aish that day, and none of them were close to doing any of them.

Seems appropriate to dredge this up-

…Stoney's Minus Ten. I once met a 6ft++ lad there who was on his first visit. He told me he'd never climbed harder than 6A on rock and, inbetween smoking joints and wandering around in the dirt with his climbing shoes (and grey socks) on, was struggling on the easiest problems. Another bloke turned up and began trying Quent's Dyno. My man joined in, did it second try and proceeded to do the other dyno problems first or second go before picking up his pad and heading home, delighted at having improved by more than a number grade in about five minutes. Either I got hustled or those problems are easy for the tall.

The fewer moves are on a climb the harder it is to grade. When those moves are reach- or height-dependent (particularly in the extreme case of dyno problems where it’s literally one morpho move) you’re heading into territory where it just can’t logically have one grade that’s accurate for everyone. Personally I’d say the answer is just to accept that grades are a loose guide of averaged-out difficulty rather than heading into some sort of slash grade/ handicap calculator/ “taking a  grade” madness.

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#40 Re: What does a slash grade signify?
August 23, 2022, 09:12:10 am
At the risk of derailing, is this what others think for the grade of Brass Monkeys?

As someone who isn't particularly short but who cannot reach the span, and who is generally well suited to steep compression, I thought it felt like it would be very hard at 7C for someone who can't span it.

I only had one session so maybe I missed something/just needed to try harder?  :shrug:

In the same session, I saw 3 taller gentlemen (all comfortably over 6ft) do Brass Monkeys quite quickly. I also saw them try plenty of other problems around 7Aish that day, and none of them were close to doing any of them.

My theory on Brass Monkeys is that if you're able to reach the good holds (i.e. get to the good LH sloper that everyone cuts on) from the heel/toe lock it's 7B/+ depending on how decent you are at compression and burl, and 7C+ or more if you can't - essentially if you can reach then the crux is that cut and trusting the heel- or toehook for the scary move to the jug, and if you can't reach then those moves getting to the LH are much harder than the lankster's 'crux' (which you'd probably piss if you could get to). As such I think it's not actually 7C for any real human being, and instead that's an averaging out of the lanky people pissing it and the shorties finding it desperate for the grade.

Carliios

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#41 Re: What does a slash grade signify?
August 23, 2022, 09:49:48 am
Brass Monkeys: 7B+/C (felt between grades to me even with span)

At the risk of derailing, is this what others think for the grade of Brass Monkeys?

As someone who isn't particularly short but who cannot reach the span, and who is generally well suited to steep compression, I thought it felt like it would be very hard at 7C for someone who can't span it.

I only had one session so maybe I missed something/just needed to try harder?  :shrug:

In the same session, I saw 3 taller gentlemen (all comfortably over 6ft) do Brass Monkeys quite quickly. I also saw them try plenty of other problems around 7Aish that day, and none of them were close to doing any of them.

Brass Monkeys is easily closer to 7C+ if you can’t span to the slopers and have to use the crimp on the lip instead, maybe harder. I’ve got one friend who’s very tall and said it felt 7B to him, YMMV.

Liamhutch89

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#42 Re: What does a slash grade signify?
August 23, 2022, 09:59:05 am
I find it hard to grade some problems with much precision at all, but for others I feel that I can be quite precise to the point that a middle ground can exist, even on modest stuff. I'm not sure what it is that differentiates these problems in their gradeability(?).

Obviously someone will disagree with every one of these, but here's a few examples of problems that to me felt right in the middle (hopefully some you may be familiar with):

Olicana Arete: 7A/+
Crusis (to the break): 7A+/B
Brass Monkeys: 7B+/C (felt between grades to me even with span)
Underhand Extension: 7B+/C

I reckon 36C is on the money here; if we're honest all of those are probably the lower of those two grades for the average person (and then trending higher the shorter you are).

I'm much more in favour of broadening the spectrum than refining it. So you'd say 7A / B rather than 7A+.

I was being honest about the grade they felt for me (not short), and I did say that not everyone would agree. This comes down to the difference between precision and accuracy (https://i0.wp.com/wp.stolaf.edu/it/files/2017/06/precsionvsaccuracy_crashcourse.png?resize=579%2C600&ssl=1).

Grades can (but not always) be precise for an individual whilst there is disagreement amongst a distribution of climbers.  It would be incorrect for me to say Olicana Arete felt 7A or 7A+; it felt precisely 7A/+. Others might think 7A, 7A+ or even 6C/+. JWI's post indicating that higher precision could lead to quicker convergence is interesting.

There are some problems I couldn't offer much precision on. The boulder problem on Kleptomania felt somewhere between 7B to 7B+. Perhaps anti-styles (narrow pinches and clipping bolts) are harder to be precise with.

There's one important thing UKB has taught me on grades - if I want to know I've climbed grade X, I had better climb X+1 to be safe!  ;D

36chambers

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#43 Re: What does a slash grade signify?
August 23, 2022, 12:01:46 pm
Personally I’d say the answer is just to accept that grades are a loose guide of averaged-out difficulty rather than heading into some sort of slash grade/ handicap calculator/ “taking a  grade” madness.

+1

There's one important thing UKB has taught me on grades - if I want to know I've climbed grade X, I had better climb X+1 to be safe!  ;D

Actually, you probably need to do 3 different climbs at X+1, to know you've climbed grade X. In various styles, at different locations, and on different rock. In fact, better make that 5 different climbs, just to be safe :P

JamieG

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#44 Re: What does a slash grade signify?
August 23, 2022, 12:31:43 pm
Personally I’d say the answer is just to accept that grades are a loose guide of averaged-out difficulty rather than heading into some sort of slash grade/ handicap calculator/ “taking a  grade” madness.

+1


+2 I didn't realise anyone actually took in any other way than to a loose guide.

There's one important thing UKB has taught me on grades - if I want to know I've climbed grade X, I had better climb X+1 to be safe!  ;D

Actually, you probably need to do 3 different climbs at X+1, to know you've climbed grade X. In various styles, at different locations, and on different rock. In fact, better make that 5 different climbs, just to be safe :P

This is always my rule of thumb. Can't say I can climb a grade until I've done at least 5. Keeps you honest. :-)

Wellsy

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#45 Re: What does a slash grade signify?
August 23, 2022, 12:44:12 pm
I'd say 5 is fair but they have to be on different rock types. I've done five 7A+s on lime but none on grit I wouldn't say I'm a 7A+ climber. 7A maybe.

Liamhutch89

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#46 Re: What does a slash grade signify?
August 23, 2022, 12:51:15 pm
I think Woods and Raboutou just lost a number grade unless they've been putting up some 8A grit slabs we don't know about!

jwi

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#47 Re: What does a slash grade signify?
August 23, 2022, 01:03:54 pm
Who call themselves a 7A-climber or an 8a-climber unironically?

I stumbled going to the kitchen this morning, so I call myself a 1+ walker.

Wellsy

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#48 Re: What does a slash grade signify?
August 23, 2022, 01:13:06 pm
Well I don't really it's just I sort of do consider what level am I at and where do I want to go etc, I think we all do that, or have at some point?

Carliios

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#49 Re: What does a slash grade signify?
August 23, 2022, 02:01:54 pm
Who call themselves a 7A-climber or an 8a-climber unironically?

I stumbled going to the kitchen this morning, so I call myself a 1+ walker.

Uhh a lot of people?

 

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