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What does a slash grade signify? (Read 7920 times)

shark

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What does a slash grade signify?
August 20, 2022, 11:33:42 am
They are getting used extensively now but this comment made me wonder what are they exactly (or inexactly) ?

Nah, I think Seb just worked out where they stood relative to each other, then went for the option with most slashes...

His post does seem to imply that he think slash grades are actual grades, not just placeholders until consensus is established though, which is clearly balls.

So are they placeholders? (like that term) till consensus decides which grade it is, an actual grade? or a way of introducing some vagueness to the system that reflects that the boundary between one grade and the next is not measurable and distinct.

cheque

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#1 Re: What does a slash grade signify?
August 20, 2022, 12:18:08 pm
are they placeholders? til consensus decides which grade it is, an actual grade?

They should be. Any grade and star rating that an FA gives is always a placeholder because those things can only be meaningfully decided by consensus.

Far too much importance is placed on the FA guessing both correctly (and stick given to those who don’t) so I guess the proliferation of slash grades is a kind of bets-hedging reaction to that. It’s better than not grading your new route at all I suppose, but that’s only really a headpointing thing as far as I know.

JamieG

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#2 Re: What does a slash grade signify?
August 20, 2022, 12:22:10 pm
Isn’t it context specific. In my mind it could mean one of several things.

1. It’s a FA or newish problem so they aren’t sure which grade band it sits in. Maybe they’re unsure if it suited them or not. Or maybe they’re not convinced they found the best beta.

2. It’s a problem that really does just sit on the boundary. Some people think it’s one grade, but hard. Some people the other, but soft. Cue long winded internet arguments. 

3. It’s morpho. Easier if you are tall/short/handsome etc.

4. A combination of the above.

I always take Seb’s slash grades to just mean he’s unsure where it sits. Maybe just because grading is hard and he’s trying to cover his behind.  :shrug:


Fiend

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#3 Re: What does a slash grade signify?
August 20, 2022, 01:15:27 pm
More accuracy  ;D :2thumbsup:

Wood FT

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#4 Re: What does a slash grade signify?
August 20, 2022, 02:08:36 pm
Ban 'em all

abarro81

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#5 Re: What does a slash grade signify?
August 20, 2022, 03:44:12 pm
I think of them as placeholders, either because as an FA you aren't sure, or because a route previously of a certain grade has had some downgrade/upgrade suggestions recently so consensus is a bit unclear... But I think the Spanish and French maybe think of them more as a real grade, to the extent that I've seen comments on 8a that something is "hard 8c+/9a or easy 9a" which is surely just saying it's the very bottom of 9a?  :shrug:

The difference with Europe may be that topos over there often don't have descriptions, so theres not room to just say Route X 8a Blah balh blah, may be 7c+.

lukeyboy

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#6 Re: What does a slash grade signify?
August 20, 2022, 05:09:55 pm
Yeah get rid of them. Let's just call a soft 9a or hard 8c+ what it is, rather than fence-sitting. If it's so close that it's either on the boundary of 8c+/9a or low 9a, does it really matter which? Maybe I'm just shit at grading but I'm amazed that some people apparently have such finely tuned grade-o-meters.

I think I'm right in saying that the '+' started in the same way that slash is now used, and only in the last 30 years or so has been seen as a grade in its own right. If we just do the same with slash, then there yet another version will come along until we're really splitting hairs. Where does it end?

I realise this is not what shark asked - in terms of how they are used, I don't know, though hopefully as a placeholder rather than intending to remain slashed.

mrjonathanr

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#7 Re: What does a slash grade signify?
August 20, 2022, 07:30:08 pm
Yeah get rid of them. Let's just call a soft 9a or hard 8c+ what it is, rather than fence-sitting.

Quite. I wonder if their increased use has anything to do with sponsorship, media and the optics of having your routes downgraded when they’re marginal grades.


I think I'm right in saying that the '+' started in the same way that slash is now used, and only in the last 30 years or so has been seen as a grade in its own right.

Not sure about its origins, but it’s been considered a fully independent grade in its own right for 40+ years.

lukeyboy

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#8 Re: What does a slash grade signify?
August 20, 2022, 07:51:05 pm


I think I'm right in saying that the '+' started in the same way that slash is now used, and only in the last 30 years or so has been seen as a grade in its own right.

Not sure about its origins, but it’s been considered a fully independent grade in its own right for 40+ years.

Yes fair enough, it may have been longer. My point was just that, at some point in the past, the '+' wasn't used as a grade, but instead was an indication of a hard 7b that wasn't quite hard enough to be 7c. Or perhaps it's just that it's only applied above a certain difficulty level and I've somehow got my wires crossed (e.g. you wouldn't get a 4a+). Would be interested to hear from those better informed.

remus

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#9 Re: What does a slash grade signify?
August 20, 2022, 09:03:22 pm
For what it's worth, I've designed climbing-history.org so that climbs must always have a 'whole' grade (e.g. 7a, 7a+ etc.) but climbers can suggest slash grades for routes, which in my eyes just means you think it's hard 7a or soft 7a+ but you're not sure exactly which and it needs more opinions. I think people's ability to distinguish between grades is roughly in line with whole grades and Im skeptical there's much use in having a system with smaller increments.

I'd echo what's been said above about people getting stick for having their climbs down graded. Frankly I think it's an amazing effort if you can get within a couple of grades, especially on routes, where little beta/gear tweaks can add up to make a huge difference in the overall difficulty.

36chambers

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#10 Re: What does a slash grade signify?
August 21, 2022, 11:17:00 am
What does a slash grade signify?

Weakness of the mind. Pick the lower grade and transcend.

Duncan campbell

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#11 Re: What does a slash grade signify?
August 21, 2022, 11:44:38 am
What does a slash grade signify?

Weakness of the mind. Pick the lower grade and transcend.

 :punk:

finbarrr

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#12 Re: What does a slash grade signify?
August 22, 2022, 07:33:39 am
Slash grades really annoy me.
Grades are guides,
With huge overlaps.
And all of a sudden af the top end people need slash grades because the existing grades don’t match their experience. If one thing is harder than something else, but easier than another for one (self obsessed?) climber that means it is a special grade?!
there is a thread on here where the most experienced climbers argue about how we are supposed to grade things, and there were huge differences of opinion.
Grade for how it feels to you, or grade how it would feel to a mythical “average climber”?
As long as the community has not answered those questions, it feels like saying “ my God is more precise than yours, every route has a precise and separate grade, like a barcode.”.
My hunch is that most experienced climbers will end up say “grades only exist in guidebook”

andy moles

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#13 Re: What does a slash grade signify?
August 22, 2022, 07:38:36 am
Scrap the letters I say, and wake me up when someone climbs a 9/10.

JamieG

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#14 Re: What does a slash grade signify?
August 22, 2022, 08:03:43 am
Sounds like you are a lumper Andy, whereas Seb is a splitter.  ;D

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lumpers_and_splitters

SA Chris

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#15 Re: What does a slash grade signify?
August 22, 2022, 08:57:12 am
More accuracy  ;D :2thumbsup:

Like E0?

Did I recall a guide or supplement once having  .1, .2 added to trad grades? Something in the Lakes? Glad that died an early death.

Fiend

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#16 Re: What does a slash grade signify?
August 22, 2022, 09:11:39 am
E0 is good for "really annoying" people, yes  :)  Actually the more I chat to people climbing around the HVS grade, the more it's still entirely sensible and justifiable as a function of how so much was packed into the HVS grade before people dared move on.

It was Duddon for the .1 .2 grades AFAIK.

36chambers

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#17 Re: What does a slash grade signify?
August 22, 2022, 10:12:36 am

jwi

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#18 Re: What does a slash grade signify?
August 22, 2022, 10:24:18 am
I very much doubt that anyone can accurately guess a future consensus grade of a route within a quarter of a grade (i.e. 9b/b+ versus 9b or b+).

On the other hand I vaguely remember that some bloke once told me that if you ask respondents to guess the value of something with higher precision than they could reasonably be expected to know, the sample average of guesses convert faster to the population average than if you ask respondents to give less precise guesses. I.e. if people vote "easy 8a", "normal 8a", "hard 8a", "8a/+" etc rather than just "8a", "8a+" etc on a survey, the sample average (and median) convert faster to the population opinion.

Alas, I cannot find a reference for this right now. Someone?

jwi

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#19 Re: What does a slash grade signify?
August 22, 2022, 10:57:17 am
When writing guidebooks etc downgrade all slashgrades to the lower suggestion and tell the people who complain to suck it up and give the higher suggestion if that’s what they mean.

I read Seb’s post as that he thinks they’re all 9b+, but that he don’t dare to actually suggest that he is that good at climbing rock

Wellsy

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#20 Re: What does a slash grade signify?
August 22, 2022, 11:00:56 am
When Aidan was talking about an 8B/+ in Switzerland he was doing the sit start to he said the consensus was the stand "occupied the grey area between 8B and 8B+" and so that to me means it isn't being used as a placeholder for a more accurate grade but rather as a specific grading in of itself

edshakey

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#21 Re: What does a slash grade signify?
August 22, 2022, 11:05:39 am
Alas, I cannot find a reference for this right now. Someone?

The field is called "Wisdom of the crowd", amongst other names, but I've not found any reference to the increased precision factor you're referring too. There's some interesting stuff out there that you can find by looking up "wisdom...", hope that leads you in the right direction!

spidermonkey09

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#22 Re: What does a slash grade signify?
August 22, 2022, 11:13:57 am
When Aidan was talking about an 8B/+ in Switzerland he was doing the sit start to he said the consensus was the stand "occupied the grey area between 8B and 8B+" and so that to me means it isn't being used as a placeholder for a more accurate grade but rather as a specific grading in of itself

I think this interpretation is what Duma called 'balls,' and I agree. It might be plausible that at the absolute top end of the grading spectrum this grey area exists until further repeats take place, but 8B and 8B+ are middle of the road for elite bouldering these days, people need to just give it one or the other and move on.

I find Bouin's relentless sandbagging quite tedious, just give them all 9b+!

yetix

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#23 Re: What does a slash grade signify?
August 22, 2022, 11:19:16 am
I use slash grades alot, but mostly because I don't want to spend a load of time worrying about is something graded x or y when I could just focus on trying the next thing.

For me boulder grades rarely make that much sense, particularly with how much morphology can impact a short selection of moves. I actually think power endurance problems grades are the only ones which make real sense.

I also used to worry about what people what think if I was just to say X is worth a higher or lower grade than others etc, whereas now I don't so much by using a slash where there's that uncertainty. Using a slash is a way to suggest something might be worth a higher or lower grade without it causing offense to someone or leading to some senseless debate (people hate their projects being downgraded, and us Brits seem to hate/ridicule others suggesting a problem could be harder than we ourselves thought it was despite boulder grades being ridiculously subjective) makes sense to me.

P. S. I find it crazy how people can be so dead certain on grades, wish I could be so sure of myself on grades haha.


Wellsy

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#24 Re: What does a slash grade signify?
August 22, 2022, 11:23:07 am
When Aidan was talking about an 8B/+ in Switzerland he was doing the sit start to he said the consensus was the stand "occupied the grey area between 8B and 8B+" and so that to me means it isn't being used as a placeholder for a more accurate grade but rather as a specific grading in of itself

I think this interpretation is what Duma called 'balls,' and I agree. It might be plausible that at the absolute top end of the grading spectrum this grey area exists until further repeats take place, but 8B and 8B+ are middle of the road for elite bouldering these days, people need to just give it one or the other and move on.

I find Bouin's relentless sandbagging quite tedious, just give them all 9b+!

It's just what he said. I have no particular view. I think probably grades are often very hazy things anyway, but I reckon at the top, where slivers of percentage points make a big difference, 8B/+ could be a grade in of itself in a way it probably isn't at 7B/+ and definitely isn't at 6B/+

 

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