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Classic Boulders with Arbitrary Rules (Read 9069 times)

teestub

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If you dont match the pinch and you use the slot then you did Tsunamish which gets 7C+, it's not optional. There are tons of videos from people getting called out on it. It is literally just a slightly worse sequence on an obvious problem.

I think the slot appeared some time after the FA so the ‘rule’ was about maintaining a notable move on the original sequence. Seen plenty of vids of people doing it with the logical sequence now. Anyway I’m not sure Tsunami fits into the ‘classic’ category, unless it’s like cars and classic status only denotes age not quality!

Edit: just checked Ru’s guide and the ‘rule’ isn’t stated in there and he’s a peak limestone kingpin!

Johnny Brown

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Quote
even Shark has a beta comment on UKC saying heels aren’t allowed

Shark is literally the only person I've heard bang on about a no heels rule on the Green traverse. As I recall, when he last did it on here it didn't get much support. It's the sort of retarded thing that should be kept indoors or between close friends.

As an aside, I was once at the Green traverse and some lads asked Big Ron if there were any rules. He said 'Oh I don't know, ask Adam'. So there. I also took Chris Sharma round the Plantation. Twice. I did not question his use of heels at any point, especially as he showed some vision in applying them to the then-unrepeated Brad Pit. But I've never been to Ceuse.

abarro81

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If you dont match the pinch and you use the slot then you did Tsunamish which gets 7C+, it's not optional. There are tons of videos from people getting called out on it.
I can assure you that there are quite a few people who would consider the sloper match optional. People like Smitton and Ryan P used to.

I've always considered the obvious and good problem to be a non-eliminate low left sitter, whatever name you want to call it. The elim version is just a worse problem but nice for those that want a historical test/tick. They really don't need different names, people used to just log them saying "with sloper match" or "without sloper match" or similar. You'd have to eliminate the heel too judging by Andy H's comments on old threads if you wanted the historical tick. I guess some people would like to think of it as "Tsunami" and "Tsunamish", and others just as Tsunami with an optional add-on if you want to do a historical sequence.

Incidentally, it's never been in Ru's guides as an elim, which has no doubt had an influence on my view on it since that was the bible when I started bouldering in the peak.

As an aside, I think a lot of these "training" style rules probably came from a time before people realised that it's useful to train to be good at climbing and not just to be strong  :lol:
« Last Edit: August 19, 2022, 01:19:38 pm by abarro81 »

CapitalistPunter

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If you dont match the pinch and you use the slot then you did Tsunamish which gets 7C+, it's not optional. There are tons of videos from people getting called out on it.
I can assure you that there are quite a few people who would consider the sloper match optional. People like Smitton and Ryan P used to.

I've always considered the obvious and good problem to be a non-eliminate low left sitter, whatever name you want to call it. The elim version is just a worse problem but nice for those that want a historical test/tick. They really don't need different names, people used to just log them saying "with sloper match" or "without sloper match" or similar. You'd have to eliminate the heel too judging by Andy H's comments on old threads if you wanted the historical tick. I guess some people would like to think of it as "Tsunami" and "Tsunamish", and others just as Tsunami with an optional add-on if you want to do a historical sequence.

Incidentally, it's never been in Ru's guides as an elim, which has no doubt had an influence on my view on it since that was the bible when I started bouldering in the peak.

As an aside, I think a lot of these "training" style rules probably came from a time before people realised that it's useful to train to be good at climbing and not just to be strong  :lol:

Seems like one of those grey areas where peoples opinions on it varies based on word of mouth and not guidebook stated rules. I personally would do the original sequence just for the sake of getting the grade and avoiding people telling me I did Tsunamish. I suppose it depends on how much of a grade chaser you are and if you mind being slagged off.

Bradders

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Can we just ship the Green Traverse bloc off to somewhere more fitting, i.e. Yorkshire, and then forget about the debacle?

I was just enjoying the fact that for once a thread like this is about a problem in the Peak, not Yorkshire.

Also fascinated by the fact it's the youngsters arguing FOR rules, and the oldies (sorry, relative term) arguing against. Real role reversal.

abarro81

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I personally would do the original sequence just for the sake of getting the grade and avoiding people telling me I did Tsunamish. I suppose it depends on how much of a grade chaser you are and if you mind being slagged off.

I would rather climb the better problem, which for me is the non-elim, then you can always go back for the eliminate version when bored. But then I think the non-elim is ~8A anyway, and don't care much for the opinions of those who think that needless rules are a good idea for the default problem rather than being an add-on for locals... 

Given the bit in bold I hope you won't be using the heel?

abarro81

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Also fascinated by the fact it's the youngsters arguing FOR rules, and the oldies (sorry, relative term) arguing against. Real role reversal.

Yeah, weird! Need Harris or Jasper or someone back to argue the case for eliminates for the old skool perspective

CapitalistPunter

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Also fascinated by the fact it's the youngsters arguing FOR rules, and the oldies (sorry, relative term) arguing against. Real role reversal.

Yeah, weird! Need Harris or Jasper or someone back to argue the case for eliminates for the old skool perspective

Carlos is an old man in my eyes!

shark

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I also took Chris Sharma round the Plantation. Twice. I did not question his use of heels at any point, especially as he showed some vision in applying them to the then-unrepeated Brad Pit. But I've never been to Ceuse.

Does he say hi?

I thought it was Le Menestral who discovered the heel to do Brad Pit 

andy popp

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Also fascinated by the fact it's the youngsters arguing FOR rules, and the oldies (sorry, relative term) arguing against. Real role reversal.

Yeah, weird! Need Harris or Jasper or someone back to argue the case for eliminates for the old skool perspective

Adam is young and wrong, as the young so often are. Heels are wrong and ugly, on the Green Traverse and in many other places.

Wellsy

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Varian the Librarian at 7A+/8A has some very specific rules and is known for being an outstanding independent line

abarro81

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To add some absurdity to this, I just perused the insta of one of the "pro rules on The Green Trav" posters on this thread... to find a vid of them doing the eliminate dyno from the rail on green trav to the top (nowadays seems to be called Green Slap)... with a heel on  :shrug:
OK, so Ru's guide doesn't technically say no heels, but it does say it's an elim and to dyno from the rail to the top, so how you would think that its not "against the rules" to use a heel on a hold that's eliminated for hands, avoiding what is surely the "point" of the eliminate (which presumably is to force a big slap as per the name), but think that the trav has rules is a mystery to me...  :shrug: I'm baffled. Is it all Rockfax's fault as per usual??

CapitalistPunter

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To add some absurdity to this, I just perused the insta of one of the "pro rules on The Green Trav" posters on this thread... to find a vid of them doing the eliminate dyno from the rail on green trav to the top (nowadays seems to be called Green Slap)... with a heel on  :shrug:
OK, so Ru's guide doesn't technically say no heels, but it does say it's an elim and to dyno from the rail to the top, so how you would think that its not "against the rules" to use a heel on a hold that's eliminated for hands, avoiding what is surely the "point" of the eliminate (which presumably is to force a big slap as per the name), but think that the trav has rules is a mystery to me...  :shrug: I'm baffled. Is it all Rockfax's fault as per usual??
We should publically execute them

Liamhutch89

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I think skateboarding has an interesting comparison. People execute tricks with a massively varied style. This tends to be celebrated. I've found people saying "you haven't climbed that properly" to just be a bit weird. Especially since I couldnt imagine policing other peoples ascents, but also because it just seems to be for fun. If people are claiming ascents at a professional level in exchange for income/sponsorship, then that's probably a different thing entirely.

I actually agree with the sentiment that people can and should climb things in any style they would like, but skateboarding has its own ethics and I wouldn't agree that all styles are celebrated. E.g. simply wearing a helmet could get you called out. Like with climbing, there are clear rules; dab on your kickflip and it's back around!

Carliios

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To add some absurdity to this, I just perused the insta of one of the "pro rules on The Green Trav" posters on this thread... to find a vid of them doing the eliminate dyno from the rail on green trav to the top (nowadays seems to be called Green Slap)... with a heel on  :shrug:
OK, so Ru's guide doesn't technically say no heels, but it does say it's an elim and to dyno from the rail to the top, so how you would think that its not "against the rules" to use a heel on a hold that's eliminated for hands, avoiding what is surely the "point" of the eliminate (which presumably is to force a big slap as per the name), but think that the trav has rules is a mystery to me...  :shrug: I'm baffled. Is it all Rockfax's fault as per usual??

Just so we’re all clear I’m not pro rules at all, I’m just saying that’s what I’ve been told. I climbed it with heels like a normal person haha. This thread was started as a way to discuss all these classics with weird rules that’s all, I never said I agreed. Oh and UKC says any feet for green slap
« Last Edit: August 19, 2022, 04:53:45 pm by Carliios »

abarro81

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I wouldn't listen to ukc, that's the first issue!
I think the main thing this thread has pointed out is the difference between "classics" which have that status due to quality (of climbing, line, rock, holds - e.g. West Side Story, Crescent Arete) and "classics" which have that status due to historical accident and popularity (first of the grade, in an influential film, soft, or just seem to become "the thing you do at x" e.g. Green Traverse, Hubble). Someone on here referred to the first as classics and the second as testpieces, which I think is a nice distinctio. Using that distinction, I guess I can think of lots of testpieces that might have dumb rules, but not so many classics
(After a post earlier, I looked up my old logbook and I'm happy to see I also voted 1 star for Green Trav)

cheque

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skateboarding has its own ethics and I wouldn't agree that all styles are celebrated. E.g. simply wearing a helmet could get you called out.

I watched some of the Olympic skateboarding and it was obvious that they were obliged to wear helmets but all had the chinstrap as loose as possible to still look cool. Whenever they fell off (do you still say “slammed”? I was a teenager last time I was on a skateboard  :lol: ) the helmet would therefore come off in mid air, not protecting their head and often strangling them on impact  :???:.

Whenever people try to say “in road biking/ fell running/ skiing/ rollerblading/ fishing/ surfing/ wakeboarding/ weightlifting etc. people do this” to make a point relating to climbing though it’s usually irrelevant though. There’s a reason the customs of different outdoor/ physical pursuits have evolved different customs and it’s usually because they’re all fundamentally different activities.

Johnny Brown

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I thought it was Le Menestral who discovered the heel to do Brad Pit 

Jeez, no. Menestrel used his toe, as did Spoon. Who got the heel to work does not seem to have been recorded or remembered, which is weird in a way given how effective it is. But people rarely pay much attention to fourth place. Darren Stevenson did it pretty early iirc.

matt463

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I think skateboarding has an interesting comparison. People execute tricks with a massively varied style. This tends to be celebrated. I've found people saying "you haven't climbed that properly" to just be a bit weird. Especially since I couldnt imagine policing other peoples ascents, but also because it just seems to be for fun. If people are claiming ascents at a professional level in exchange for income/sponsorship, then that's probably a different thing entirely.

I actually agree with the sentiment that people can and should climb things in any style they would like, but skateboarding has its own ethics and I wouldn't agree that all styles are celebrated. E.g. simply wearing a helmet could get you called out. Like with climbing, there are clear rules; dab on your kickflip and it's back around!

A dab isn't like using your heel though right? A dab is failing to do a trick just like it is in bouldering. I'm talking about boning out an ollie as opposed to just an ordinary ollie as a comparison. I agree that there is accepted style (ripping on people for pushing mongo) but generally, people don't go as far to say that trick X wasn't completed because of that. I don't think skaters take it as seriously

Shy Ted

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If you dont match the pinch and you use the slot then you did Tsunamish which gets 7C+, it's not optional. There are tons of videos from people getting called out on it.
I can assure you that there are quite a few people who would consider the sloper match optional. People like Smitton and Ryan P used to.

I've always considered the obvious and good problem to be a non-eliminate low left sitter, whatever name you want to call it. The elim version is just a worse problem but nice for those that want a historical test/tick. They really don't need different names, people used to just log them saying "with sloper match" or "without sloper match" or similar. You'd have to eliminate the heel too judging by Andy H's comments on old threads if you wanted the historical tick. I guess some people would like to think of it as "Tsunami" and "Tsunamish", and others just as Tsunami with an optional add-on if you want to do a historical sequence.

Incidentally, it's never been in Ru's guides as an elim, which has no doubt had an influence on my view on it since that was the bible when I started bouldering in the peak.

As an aside, I think a lot of these "training" style rules probably came from a time before people realised that it's useful to train to be good at climbing and not just to be strong  :lol:

We used to do it all possible ways to make sure.

Fatboyslimfast2

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I did the Green Traverse for the first time in 1986 or maybe early 1987, as per the name it was livid green and literally the only holds clean were those on what people describe as the eliminate version. Starting blob, the guppy hold, the drop down to the edge and the hold you go for off that and the vague edge and finishing jug. All the heel hooks were etc were covered in shite and not used, hence that is what I would consider the original green traverse. Hence later on when boots actually had a heel that would do something and holds became cleaner different sequences were used.
BTW the chips were pre climbing/documenting of T crack,, generally we would avoid them to make a point!

Johnny Brown

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I haven't paid much attention to others, but the heels I use are on the starting and finishing jugs.

Tom de Gay

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I thought it was Le Menestral who discovered the heel to do Brad Pit 

Jeez, no. Menestrel used his toe, as did Spoon. Who got the heel to work does not seem to have been recorded or remembered, which is weird in a way given how effective it is. But people rarely pay much attention to fourth place. Darren Stevenson did it pretty early iirc.

According to my infallible memory, I saw Steve McClure discover it, probably in '98.

Many classics in Font with arbitrary rules, Piano and Medaille en Chocolate come to mind.

Carlos Traversi doing the Dominator using the original sequence probably also fits here.

i_a_coops

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I think the main thing this thread has pointed out is the difference between "classics" which have that status due to quality (of climbing, line, rock, holds - e.g. West Side Story, Crescent Arete) and "classics" which have that status due to historical accident and popularity...

Doesn't West Side Story have an arbitrary rule to not do Ron-Side Force-It?  :popcorn:

Careless Torque: 'don't take the line of least resistance into Not to be Taken Away'

Big Boss - 'don't weight the inevitable ass dab'

Deliverance: 'don't be really tall'

The Sphinx: 'don't do it because you might break Voyager'

Soudain Seul: 'only paperback books allowed under your kneepad'

Fiend

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Varian the Librarian at 7A+/8A has some very specific rules and is known for being an outstanding independent line
LOL I missed all of this, top stuff. As is some of the other stuff on this thread.


 

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