[abarro81]

I don't know who wrote the Rockfax for bouldering in the peak, or even what guide it is, but if it's anything like their guides to Europe the author won't have climbed 99% of the stuff so I would take it with an enormous pinch of salt [edit - and it sounds like it might not even have rules in that from Jim's post]. I don't see any good reason for it to have rules, though there may be a "classic sequence" that people might want to do for historical completeness (same as the powerband dropdown). I don't remember the problem well enough to know which holds anyone might consider "out"

[Carliios]

Green Trav in rockfax literally has each hold labelled and you’re told which holds you can use? You’re not “allowed” to use heels and in the rockfax guide the ear hold near the top that lots of people use isn’t labelled which assumes it’s eliminated. Maybe I just read that wrong but I’ve also been told that in person by locals before I moved up.

You've read it wrong. Look again. It doesn't prescribe any rules for Green Trav other than the starting hold. All the labelled holds are for the other eliminates around it. It also doesn't mention heels.

You can hopefully see where the confusion comes from? It has a line following all the marked holds so you would assume that those are the holds you have to use? And the heel thing is pretty well established let’s not pretend it’s not, even Shark has a beta comment on UKC saying heels aren’t allowed and there’s a strict log in UKC with the description “ As for the The Green Traverse but no heel hook allowed and both hands need to drop down.”

I wish you wouldn’t try and gaslight me, I’m a punter but not that much of a punter lol.

[spidermonkey09]

Jesus wept, no one is gaslighting anyone; people seem to be trying to work out where the rules have come from and I'm pointing out that contrary to what you wrote, the Rockfax doesn't tell you what holds you have to use, so the origin of it is not there. I'm always up for some Rockfax slagging where deserved but this isn't one of those occasions.

I'm also aware of the heels 'rule' but think I probably ignored it when I did the problem or didn't know as it obviously doesn't make sense.

Interesting that others don't consider the Rib an eliminate either, tbf I don't think the footledge is specified as out in the guide so perhaps this is another example of locals eliminating stuff to make ther after work session more interesting and them somehow becoming gospel over the years, albeit in a solely oral tradition rather than being written down anywhere.

[abarro81]

I wish you wouldn’t try and gaslight me

Get a grip, he was only pointing out you'd read it wrong. You even said yourself you might have done ("Maybe I just read that wrong")

[Carliios]

I wish you wouldn’t try and gaslight me

Get a grip, he was only pointing out you'd read it wrong. You even said yourself you might have done ("Maybe I just read that wrong")

Yes but not about the heel hooks which is literally the most widely well known rule about that climb. I don’t need to get a grip when I know for sure, 100% certainty that it’s a real rule that everyone knows and he tries to tell me It’s not. That’s exactly what gaslighting is, trying to make someone think that what they know isn’t true.

[Droyd]

I've just checked in Rockfax Peak Bouldering and it says "Start on the rounded hold A and follow the holds leftwards, dropping down, then back up towards the left end of the block." The line dips down to the crimp rail then back up to the jugs. However the text doesn't say that you must drop down and match, and it doesn't say anything about heels. I'd guess that this is a classic example of sloppy Rockfax writing up. It also doesn't mention the chip on Cave Problem at Robin Hood's Stride, where to start for the Hippo at Plantation for it to be worth 7A+, that Thing on a Spring at Birchen is 7A only from a sit...

Edit to add: Here's the text from the 2004 Vertebrate Peak Bouldering guide: "From the rounded blob on the arête traverse leftwards displaying as little technique as possible. Once you've done this, do it again missing out the holds of your choice. Endless fun. Reversing it is slightly harder."

However I also once bumped into Martin Veale, shortly after I'd noticed all of Shark's comments on people's UKC photos telling them that they hadn't done it because they were shown using a heel. So I figured I'd take the once-in-a-lifetime opportunity to ask the FA. He said that he couldn't remember using any heels and that the idea that the problem was an eliminate or had a defined sequence was nonsense as far as he was concerned. Based on that I'd guess that maybe the 'strict' version could've been the original sequence (heels not really being a common technique then, or possibly being considered less satisfying to use given bouldering was often considered to be 'training', in the same vein as heels on a board) and that the consequent polishing of the smear that you use to pop up from the rail has led to the establishing of what is now an easier sequence using a heel, and that this idea of the original sequence being the only 'correct' one comes down to whether you believe in the importance of FA sequences...

I'd also say that the use of 'gaslighting' is a bit shoddy, in that the modern application of it in disagreements regarding facts (or even disagreements where fact and opinion become confused) is a bastardisation of a term that was originally used to describe a process of emotional abuse and manipulation that leads the victim to question their grip on reality with the goal of ensuring that they remain within the abusive relationship.

[teestub]

Yes but not about the heel hooks which is literally the most widely well known rule about that climb. I don’t need to get a grip when I know for sure, 100% certainty that it’s a real rule that everyone knows and he tries to tell me It’s not. That’s exactly what gaslighting is, trying to make someone think that what they know isn’t true.

Is this the relatively recent Rockfax guide and it stipulates no heels? I had heard of this ‘rule’ but assumed it was a historical relict like so many others in the people that people sensibly and rightly ignored these days.

My other question would be why anyone is using a Rockfax guide for Peak bouldering when they could be using Ru’s excellent book.

[Fiend]

Wait, Green Traverse has rules??

[abarro81]

Yes but not about the heel hooks which is literally the most widely well known rule about that climb. I don’t need to get a grip when I know for sure, 100% certainty that it’s a real rule that everyone knows and he tries to tell me It’s not. That’s exactly what gaslighting is, trying to make someone think that what they know isn’t true.

He just said the Rockfax guide doesn't mention a heels rule ("It doesn't prescribe any rules for Green Trav other than the starting hold. All the labelled holds are for the other eliminates around it. It also doesn't mention heels.").

I can't check since I don't own the guide, but if it does then just post a quote... if it doesn't then get a grip since  someone pointing out that you're wrong is not "gaslighting"

Interesting that you know with 100% certainty that everyone knows that rule, since I don't know that rule, though it's probably 10 years since I last did the problem. All I can remember from my early days of going to Stanage (2006-2008 looking at my logbook) was people saying you should stay below the lip, if that makes sense, not rules about which holds or heel hooks or whatever.

As Droyd points out, I think a lot of these "rules" end up coming from people getting pissy about new techniques or holds appearing and making the historical sequence redundant. IMO the solution to this is not to make the climb an eliminate, but just to mention the historical sequence in the description.

[spidermonkey09]

Yes but not about the heel hooks which is literally the most widely well known rule about that climb. I don’t need to get a grip when I know for sure, 100% certainty that it’s a real rule that everyone knows and he tries to tell me It’s not. That’s exactly what gaslighting is, trying to make someone think that what they know isn’t true.

I don't know why I'm bothering anymore, but not only is it in bad taste for the reasons Droyd pointed out, its also completely false as its not what I wrote. I wrote the Rockfax doesn't mention heels, so we know thats not the origin of the 'rule.' I am aware of the existence of the 'rule,' but its interesting that Barrows isnt.

[Stabbsy]

With Green Traverse, I think the original OTE guide from the 90s had the lettered holds and the prescribed sequence. It also had the name as Dope on a Slope from the arête and Green Traverse from the “full” lying down start - so opposite way round to now. Not sure about the first Peak Bouldering Rockfax (the one with B grades) as I’ve no longer got a copy. I can certainly remember doing the “prescribed” sequence on a uni trip in about 1995. I don’t remember any rules about no heels in the guide, but that’s just the way I’ve always done it.

FWIW, I’ve had chats with people at the crag while doing the “strict” sequence when they’ve asked if they can use heels and said do whatever you like (not as militant as Shark!). However, I still always do the strict sequence as I find it significantly harder, particularly now the foothold on the arête (below the starting hold) has deteriorated. The pop move from the rail is just a really satisfying move, albeit contrived, even more so from the start round the corner.

It’s no classic - 1 star at most (maybe 2 at a push for the right hand start, as the extra moves are great), but that block still provides enjoyment for me 25+ years after I first climbed on it.

[abarro81]

I don’t remember any rules about no heels in the guide, but that’s just the way I’ve always done it.

That fits for me - I think I was too shit at climbing to think about using heels or doing something different to what other people were trying (which I think was the classic sequence). I might have used a heel at the end though?

[andy moles]

So if you do a heel hook you haven't done the Green Traverse, which begs the question: what have you done? Nothing at all? Shuffled fruitlessly sideways on a slug of gritstone under a tree? Should we retro-name the no-holds-barred version 400 Bin Votes and transfer 95% of UKC logbook entries?

Or perhaps for balance there should be another version where heels are allowed but toes aren't. It would make about as much sense.

I have no idea if I used a heel when I did it ten years ago, but I see I voted one star, contrary to 133/181 voters who regard it as a national classic.

[andy_e]

Dope on a Slope [sic], B7
Start on hold A and traverse left using everything but the top. Pull around the corner to finish.

-Williams and James, Rockfax, 1998

[Footwork]

I wish you wouldn’t try and gaslight me

Get a grip, he was only pointing out you'd read it wrong. You even said yourself you might have done ("Maybe I just read that wrong")

Yes but not about the heel hooks which is literally the most widely well known rule about that climb. I don’t need to get a grip when I know for sure, 100% certainty that it’s a real rule that everyone knows and he tries to tell me It’s not. That’s exactly what gaslighting is, trying to make someone think that what they know isn’t true.

I think it was A. J. Ayer who said knowledge is a justified, true belief. So knowledge that heels are banned on the traverse could be a belief, justified (because everyone you've ever spoken to says the same) but it might not be true - which falls short of the knowledge test. For example, Ron sees you on the traverse and asks why you're not using your heels. Obviously the next question is - is the green traverse the peoples problem (with their rules) and no longer Ron's etc.

But this can show why it's not gaslighting when a belief is justified but false.

I digress 

[matt463]

I think skateboarding has an interesting comparison. People execute tricks with a massively varied style. This tends to be celebrated. I've found people saying "you haven't climbed that properly" to just be a bit weird. Especially since I couldnt imagine policing other peoples ascents, but also because it just seems to be for fun. If people are claiming ascents at a professional level in exchange for income/sponsorship, then that's probably a different thing entirely.

[steveri]

Green Traverse (7A) - Rockfax and Vertebrate - go from there to there
Ron's Reach (7A) - Rockfax and Vertebrate - miss out the low rail
Green Traverse Strict (7A) - ukc - low rail, no heels

They're all the same grade and if Martin Veale isn't too bothered, it all seems a bit 'my way of having fun is better than your way'.

Dope on a Slope - start a bit further over for 1/2 a grade.

We'd probably need to go consult George Cukor for the 1944 meaning of Gaslighting. Funnily enough I'd thought this was a Hitchcock movie, which shows the importance of checking your sources. In some cases. He's dead now.

[36chambers]

Green Traverse (7A) - Rockfax and Vertebrate - go from there to there
Ron's Reach (7A) - Rockfax and Vertebrate - miss out the low rail
Green Traverse Strict (7A) - ukc - low rail, no heels

I always thought Green Traverse using everything was supposed to be 6C+ and people were adamant about no heel hooks to keep it at 7A (although I don't know where I got this idea from). If they are the same grade regardless, then the whole thing seems completely ridiculous.

[Stabbsy]

Dope on a Slope [sic], B7
Start on hold A and traverse left using everything but the top. Pull around the corner to finish.

-Williams and James, Rockfax, 1998

Sounds right - I thought I was using the old OTE guide in '95ish. I think Al Williams wrote the OTE guide as well though, so it would be unsurprising if things migrated across.

I can kind of see how people might get the "no heels" thing from that description though - Hold A is basically the top of the boulder, so if you're saying don't use the top for hands and feet then you wouldn't put feet on the hold A which is what everyone does. Massively contrived though, because if you're using it for hands, then why not for feet? It's even more contrived if you start round the corner, because your right leg is on top of the boulder for 2 or 3 moves until you reach hold A but then you're told it must be kept below afterwards!

Green Traverse (7A) - Rockfax and Vertebrate - go from there to there
Ron's Reach (7A) - Rockfax and Vertebrate - miss out the low rail
Green Traverse Strict (7A) - ukc - low rail, no heels

They're all the same grade.

I wonder if this might be the nub of the problem, because they really aren't the same grade (for me at least). In their current state, I'd go with Green Traverse (6C/+), Strict (7A), Ron's Reach (7A/+) depending on if you use heels. If people were less attached to grades, it would all be fine!

[SA Chris]

I'd also say that the use of 'gaslighting' is a bit shoddy, in that the modern application of it in disagreements regarding facts (or even disagreements where fact and opinion become confused) is a bastardisation of a term that was originally used to describe a process of emotional abuse and manipulation that leads the victim to question their grip on reality with the goal of ensuring that they remain within the abusive relationship.

Have we been gaslighted into believing what gaslighting means?

[Eddies]

L1,R1,L8,R11,L14,R14
World Class 

[Fiend]

Can we just ship the Green Traverse bloc off to somewhere more fitting, i.e. Yorkshire, and then forget about the debacle?

[Ross Barker]

L1,R1,L8,R11,L14,R14
World Class 

Isn't that the jetpack cheat code?

[36chambers]

Can we just ship the Green Traverse bloc off to somewhere more fitting, i.e. Yorkshire, and then forget about the debacle?

We've already got one, and it's just as bad https://ukbouldering.com/board/index.php/topic,31971

[CapitalistPunter]

I don't think I've ever thought of green trav, the rib or tsunami as eliminates. Tsunami I would consider as a non eliminate problem where there's the option of a "historical sequence" if you want it. I certainly used all holds for that, dancing fish, and press low left. To me eliminates make sense when they create an entirely new/different problem that wouldn't exist otherwise, rather than just a slightly worse sequence on an obvious problem. Having said that, I've always followed the rules at crag x despite their stupidity so I'm clearly inconsistent...

If you dont match the pinch and you use the slot then you did Tsunamish which gets 7C+, it's not optional. There are tons of videos from people getting called out on it. It is literally just a slightly worse sequence on an obvious problem.