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BMC NW fixed gear policy (Read 4689 times)

steveri

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BMC NW fixed gear policy
August 10, 2022, 12:21:30 pm
Open for comments now:

'Please feel free to make suggestions if you think any point is unclear or we have missed something. The deadline for this will be the 23rd of August. After this we will make any changes if necessary and share the final draft by the 27th of August. The final version will be voted on at Wilton Fest. For anyone not attending, please email bmcnwchair@gmail.com with your vote before 5pm on Friday the 2nd of September, and your vote will be added to the tally. Voting format will be "Yes" / "No" / "Abstain".'

https://www.facebook.com/BMCNorthWestArea/
https://tinyurl.com/mw8th2r7 
[ https://docs.google.com/document/d/1WPxWLfQUsMQgtTCJnI8eS4R8n6oLiPhA3m7xOHWFxUg/edit?fbclid=IwAR13RBGT1HEvXAqyXZQs2HSJ2Jeu4meu-nKodSbfUXF9ezo5gerfNJuWaJE ]

Will Hunt

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#1 Re: BMC NW fixed gear policy
August 10, 2022, 01:14:25 pm
It's not my area but I don't really like the requirement to get permission from first ascentionists. I think it's normally put in as a backstop against retro-bolting but in some cases it's the FA who wants to put the bolts in (i.e. with some new Attermire sport routes). Regardless, I don't think FAs should get to "own" the future of their routes. If the community is crying out for better fixed kit or the introduction of fixed kit on a particular crag/route then that shouldn't be derailed by one person's opinion, even if it is one of their routes. Consult them, sure, but don't let them have a veto.

Bradders

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#2 Re: BMC NW fixed gear policy
August 10, 2022, 02:37:52 pm
It's not my area but I don't really like the requirement to get permission from first ascentionists. I think it's normally put in as a backstop against retro-bolting but in some cases it's the FA who wants to put the bolts in (i.e. with some new Attermire sport routes). Regardless, I don't think FAs should get to "own" the future of their routes. If the community is crying out for better fixed kit or the introduction of fixed kit on a particular crag/route then that shouldn't be derailed by one person's opinion, even if it is one of their routes. Consult them, sure, but don't let them have a veto.

Agree. Such a policy only reinforces the idea that the person who does a route first has some sort of ownership over the rock, which I think is wrong.

rginns

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#3 Re: BMC NW fixed gear policy
August 10, 2022, 04:05:36 pm
It's not my area but I don't really like the requirement to get permission from first ascentionists. I think it's normally put in as a backstop against retro-bolting but in some cases it's the FA who wants to put the bolts in (i.e. with some new Attermire sport routes). Regardless, I don't think FAs should get to "own" the future of their routes. If the community is crying out for better fixed kit or the introduction of fixed kit on a particular crag/route then that shouldn't be derailed by one person's opinion, even if it is one of their routes. Consult them, sure, but don't let them have a veto.

Nail on the head here Will, that's exactly what it's in there for, so certain FAs can retrobolt their own routes with impunity.....

"no-one can put a bolt in unless it's one of my routes and I want to..." :wall: :no: what kind of rationale is that?

steveri

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#4 Re: BMC NW fixed gear policy
August 10, 2022, 04:11:51 pm
Agree with general sentiment and suggested an amendment. Feels like the FA gets a sort of ‘block vote’, but not a veto. They could also be dead, uncontactable or care less.

rginns

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#5 Re: BMC NW fixed gear policy
August 10, 2022, 04:27:17 pm
Agree with general sentiment and suggested an amendment. Feels like the FA gets a sort of ‘block vote’, but not a veto. They could also be dead, uncontactable or care less.
Yeah it seems mostly OK now although I don't see why natural grit crags are singled out - surely the statement should be "There should be no new fixed gear of any kind placed on any of the North West’s natural grit crags"
Doesn't seem contentious but then what do you do about Frogsmouth quarry in which bolts are accepted?
Also, what about Limestone?
This is the problem with a policy for the whole of the North West when it's such a big area, the policy is liable to become unworkable because each geographic area/rock type quarried or natural has it's own ethic.
If you had a policy that covered each small area it becomes too complex.
Minefield.

rginns

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#6 Re: BMC NW fixed gear policy
August 10, 2022, 04:30:35 pm
Also on point 3, how many people are going to go to an area meeting to ask for permission to place a bolt on their (as yet unclimbed) new route, thus giving away the project even if it is ratified.... #unlikely
hmmm
 :-\

steveri

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#7 Re: BMC NW fixed gear policy
August 10, 2022, 04:48:06 pm
^^ also noted and fed back elsewhere. The BMC is more of a guardian than a policeman. Anything too prescriptive is going to be ignored by people out doing stuff rather than attending meetings (possible to do both of course).

Fiend

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#8 Re: BMC NW fixed gear policy
August 10, 2022, 09:52:36 pm
My spanner and lump hammer are ready  :spank:

shark

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#9 Re: BMC NW fixed gear policy
August 11, 2022, 08:49:35 am
I was asked to and wrote a fixed gear policy for the Peak Area a few years ago that was agreed (eventually). It was very much a guidance document rather than the Ten Commandments - thou shalt not do this, thou shalt not do that. I’d link it if I could find it on the BMC website.  :wall:

The tone and content of this proposed policy oversteps the ethos of the BMC being a representative body rather than a governing body.
If I was a local activist who wasn’t part of the BMC I think it would piss me off and alienate me further rather than get me to step in line.

Offwidth

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#10 Re: BMC NW fixed gear policy
August 11, 2022, 11:48:55 am
I was asked to and wrote a fixed gear policy for the Peak Area a few years ago that was agreed (eventually). It was very much a guidance document rather than the Ten Commandments - thou shalt not do this, thou shalt not do that. I’d link it if I could find it on the BMC website.  :wall:

The tone and content of this proposed policy oversteps the ethos of the BMC being a representative body rather than a governing body.
If I was a local activist who wasn’t part of the BMC I think it would piss me off and alienate me further rather than get me to step in line.

Let's not get carried away. Although I share some of the concerns raised in this thread, this is just a proposed policy from the BMC NW area. Other local areas have debated the subject, consulted with BMC access officers and other stakeholders and produced central BMC agreed documents that seem to work. Here is an example from N Wales:

https://www.thebmc.co.uk/fixed-gear-on-north-wales-rock-climbs-general-advice-and-guidance

https://www.thebmc.co.uk/Handlers/DownloadHandler.ashx?id=2179

steveri

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#11 Re: BMC NW fixed gear policy
August 12, 2022, 09:20:22 am
Also noted, I don't think I've seen the Peak document shark - far more voices to balance - I'd be interested if you have a copy/link. My motivation is I don't think quite enough people have been involved and fewer people with skin in the game. I don't have a ton of skin in the NW bolted rock game - there isn't that much - but it would be nice to feel the document is as good as it can be, before being ticked 'done' for another 5 years. Needs an introductory paragraph setting a more inclusive tone at least, will ponder.


shark

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#12 Re: BMC NW fixed gear policy
August 12, 2022, 12:27:21 pm
There should be a link in the BMC Peak District Northern and/or Southern Limestone guide intro but wouldn’t be surprised if it’s a dead link now. Away at the moment but I’ll check when back and if doesn’t work I’ll dig out an old document and send it to you.

Fiend

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#13 Re: BMC NW fixed gear policy
August 12, 2022, 12:53:13 pm
It's not my area but I don't really like the requirement to get permission from first ascentionists. I think it's normally put in as a backstop against retro-bolting but in some cases it's the FA who wants to put the bolts in (i.e. with some new Attermire sport routes). Regardless, I don't think FAs should get to "own" the future of their routes. If the community is crying out for better fixed kit or the introduction of fixed kit on a particular crag/route then that shouldn't be derailed by one person's opinion, even if it is one of their routes. Consult them, sure, but don't let them have a veto.
This was Saint Les's suggestion, with a "permission is necessary but not sufficient". It's less about "ownership" of a route and more about respecting the efforts, vision, and intention of the FA. BUT it's one of the least important aspects compared to consistency with the general rock-type ethics and wider consultation of interested parties.


Yeah it seems mostly OK now although I don't see why natural grit crags are singled out - surely the statement should be "There should be no new fixed gear of any kind placed on any of the North West’s natural grit crags"
Doesn't seem contentious but then what do you do about Frogsmouth quarry in which bolts are accepted?
Also, what about Limestone?
This is the problem with a policy for the whole of the North West when it's such a big area, the policy is liable to become unworkable because each geographic area/rock type quarried or natural has it's own ethic.
If you had a policy that covered each small area it becomes too complex.
Minefield.
It's the general UK way though. Natural grit is sacrosanct. Many sea-cliffs and mountain crags similarly. Low-lying crags less so. Limestone and quarries a lot more relaxed. I think it's good to be consistent with the general state of play, whilst aiming to preserve trad ethics as best we can. It shouldn't be too complicated in the North West:
Natural grit - no fixed gear.
Natural lime / quarried grit / quarried lime - some restrictions on fixed gear
Natural sandstone - no fixed gear
Quarried sandstone - mostly restrictions on fixed gear with specific exceptions.


Also on point 3, how many people are going to go to an area meeting to ask for permission to place a bolt on their (as yet unclimbed) new route, thus giving away the project even if it is ratified.... #unlikely
hmmm
 :-\
Well it could be done without details. "I've been working a new line in a gritstone quarry with minimal protection, I'd like to place two bolts to protect it, is this okay?"

The tone and content of this proposed policy oversteps the ethos of the BMC being a representative body rather than a governing body.
If I was a local activist who wasn’t part of the BMC I think it would piss me off and alienate me further rather than get me to step in line.
Well some of the old boys very much like everything being written on stone tablets (trundled off their latest micro-variant eliminate masterpiece), and extensively debated and certified at official meetings with as much verbosity and certainty as possible.... But equally is a kneejerk reaction saying "SHAN'T!!" useful??

But it's a good point that maybe it could be codified more gently and encouragingly rather than dictatorially....

As SteveRi implies, that's why it's being posted on here (and elsewhere).

My comment from FB was:

Quote
Good stuff. I would suggest some further consideration of
"3. No new fixed protection or lower-offs must be installed on existing or new routes without prior discussion and agreement at a BMC NW Area meeting. The first ascender’s agreement is required but not sufficient."
In particular I would suggest greater leniency in this guideline for NON-DRILLED fixed gear (i.e. pegs / threads) on NEW routes in the grit / limestone quarries, where other natural protection is not available. Occasional use of fixed gear THAT ACCEPTS A NATURAL WEAKNESS IN THE ROCK has been part of Lancs history (and limestone and quarries in the UK in general) and shouldn't be as restricted as bolting blank bits of rock. Obviously it should still be undertaken with care and consideration (including it's necessity, the value of the route, and possible interference with other routes), but I think there should be greater leeway there.


steveri

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#15 Re: BMC NW fixed gear policy
August 12, 2022, 03:09:12 pm
Thanks Offwidth, Shark, Fiend, exactly the sort of stuff I was hoping to tease out. Fiend's view in particular - a busy climber out there doing it (nobody likes a kiss ass) - is the kind of voice that was missing from the first meeting where most of v1 went through on the nod. Trying to redress that now with v2.

shark

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#16 Re: BMC NW fixed gear policy
August 12, 2022, 04:35:45 pm
Thanks for the link Steve. I assume it dropped off the BMC website. Was interesting re-reading it. I was never in favour of a policy document at all and felt that it was the kind of thing that the issues should be left to local activists. I only wrote it in response to Ian Milburn tabling a more prescriptive initial proposal which was similar to the type of policy document that has been tabled by the North West.

Offwidth

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#17 Re: BMC NW fixed gear policy
August 12, 2022, 06:05:06 pm
I liked the tone of that document. I do think we need something to educate and get people thinking... we don't want things getting out of hand.

I was at Windgather last week and there was an old reminder of what might easily spread on some natural grit: a peg and a threaded bolt hole to supplement a belay where there is OK natural gear, obviously placed for the convenience of groups.

Fiend

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#18 Re: BMC NW fixed gear policy
August 15, 2022, 08:46:34 pm
Re point 3:

I think it's essential to differentiate between guidelines for fixed protection en route, and fixed lower-offs at the top of routes, as the former often fundamentally changes the nature of the trad experience, whilst the latter can be useful to preserve a typical inland cragging experience in situations where incongruously dire and over-grown top-outs would put people off otherwise good trad climbs (bear in mind this is Lancs, not the Llyn). I suggest different rules for each.

Nike Air

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#19 Re: BMC NW fixed gear policy
August 15, 2022, 09:20:24 pm
Good luck getting a balanced Viewpoint on lower offs in the Lancashire quarries!

Fiend

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spidermonkey09

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#21 Re: BMC NW fixed gear policy
August 16, 2022, 08:29:40 am
That group and some of those who inhabit it are embarrassing. :wank: Its like they go out of their way to engender an unwelcoming atmosphere.

The quarries would clearly benefit from loweroffs so the routes a) get done and b) get done without an unjustifable muddy grovel pulling on absolute choss thats vaguely atatched to the clifftop...

« Last Edit: August 16, 2022, 08:42:42 am by spidermonkey09 »

Fiend

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#22 Re: BMC NW fixed gear policy
August 16, 2022, 09:14:17 am
The link I posted was a Facebook poll querying ways to deal with the currently neglected and dirty Allotment area at Wilton 1 (including a "thoroughly clean and add lower-offs to avoid the scruffy finishes" option). It was getting good engagement and little arguing in the comments - the balance being well towards the "clean and add lower-offs" option, with "retrobolt" and "clean and hope it gets traffic" options 2nd and 3rd. However the poll has now disappeared, as did one I posted before it. Not sure if it's a glitch or what. i know 3/4 of the group admins in the guidebook chat group and it's none of them.

The epic bantz that sm90 is referring to is another post in the group in which I casually speculated on lower-offs as part of general Wilton chat, and had Phil Kelly kicking off in an amusingly Ken Wilson sort of way. Personally I'm fine with that as it's good to have a bit of ethical debate and people defending the extremes, even though he is wrong!! I'd also say that LRR is still a great group because it's active and vibrant and has people heavily involved in the area and generally appreciating it.

spidermonkey09

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#23 Re: BMC NW fixed gear policy
August 16, 2022, 09:18:33 am
Yeah on reflection that was an unnecessarily grumpy comment and obviously all the people involved care about the area and volunteer their time to look after it, which is laudable. I do think it could do with being a bit more welcoming though.

steveri

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#24 Re: BMC NW fixed gear policy
August 28, 2022, 04:20:53 pm
Updated draft:
https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1azL117iF8C1Z_2AMlGXYIa4tynMDHeDL

Feels gentler and more inclusive but at the expense of being longer and more prescriptive. If only we could all agree on “don’t be a dick”.

 

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