[andy popp]

I'm wondering if Bradder's question (because I've asked myself the same question) may really have been; why does Dan's stuff get this promotion when other things don't? I believe Simon when he says it's largely because Dan asked him to. But I wonder if he should think again?

I've just read as much of it as I could take. At one level it's simply an immensely tedious pile of drivel (IMO etc. etc., obviously). But at another it really stinks. As FD points out there are uncritical nods to a fascist philosopher and a Neo-Nazi cult associated with a number of crimes. There's anti-vax conspiracies, climate change denial, hints about the NWO and "cultural Marxism" (neither of which can ever be separated from anti-semitism), and various other unpleasant bigotries, as others have pointed out this morning.

So, if Dan wants it promoted here (though god knows why he would, surely this place represents all that he affects to disdain in modern climbing) then let him create an account, try not to get banned again, and promote it himself. I wouldn't touch it with a barge pole.

[Oldmanmatt]

Reads like if Thomas Mair was a climber and wrote a manifesto, think I’ll save my money thanks.

It’s free!

Over priced.

[Will Hunt]

It's not just poking fun at Lattice et al. any more. Since Dan fell down the rabbit hole there's all sorts of nasty stuff in there (I haven't seen the latest but occasionally came across bits and pieces on Instagram). Freedom of speech is fair enough but at least some of it is barely-disguised hate speech.

[Will Hunt]

I mean, wtf is this?
https://www.instagram.com/p/CyI5UUGNUvh/?igshid=MzRlODBiNWFlZA==

[Dingdong]

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Graphorrhea

[seankenny]

Could someone with children please tell me at what point they usually stop drawing and writing about willies all the time?

[Oldmanmatt]

Could someone with children please tell me at what point they usually stop drawing and writing about willies all the time?

Children?

May I introduce you to His Majesty’s Armed Forces, all branches?

[seankenny]

Could someone with children please tell me at what point they usually stop drawing and writing about willies all the time?

Children?

May I introduce you to His Majesty’s Armed Forces, all branches?

Lol fair enough, I’m not a man who chooses to spend the vast majority of his time with large groups of other men…

Thinking about Dan’s book and what lies behind it, it’s all rather sad and destructive. On the other hand, I’m glad that there isn’t much of a constructive outlet in this country for many of the views expressed, but I also find the obvious sense of disconnection and atomisation depressing. (Yes, disconnection, even though the material travels down well worn grooves.)

[Wellsy]

There is a fine line between a good spicy meme and the kind of thing that goes in your FBI domestic terrorism watchlist casefile and I fear like this Instagram account has pitched its tent in the latter's campsite... also the 4chan-lite review of it   posted here made me want to throw up in my mouth a little...

[Wellsy]

Also anyone who unironically uses the phrase "Soy Boys" is a tremendous fuckwit I'm afraid

[Kingy]

What does atomisation mean? 

[slab_happy]

In sociological terms, it'd mean something like the breaking down of a society into isolated individuals.

[petejh]

I'm wondering if Bradder's question (because I've asked myself the same question) may really have been; why does Dan's stuff get this promotion when other things don't? I believe Simon when he says it's largely because Dan asked him to. But I wonder if he should think again?

I haven’t read Dan’s book, or whatever it is.. I don’t feel I need or want to. I’ve always been in favour of people creating and expressing themselves  however they feel they want to, within the law.. (not within the confines of good taste or ‘not causing offence’).
And if their output leads to them being considered bellends for it, then so be it.

[Wellsy]

I haven’t read Dan’s book or whatever it is.. I don’t feel I need or want to. I’ve always been in favour of people creating and expressing theme selves however they feel they want to, within the law.. not within the confines of food taste or not causing offence.
And if their output leads to them being considered bellends for it, then so be it.

Isn't that just what has happened though

[petejh]

Yes.

[Bradders]

I'm wondering if Bradder's question (because I've asked myself the same question) may really have been; why does Dan's stuff get this promotion when other things don't? I believe Simon when he says it's largely because Dan asked him to. But I wonder if he should think again?

To give a less flippant reply; yes this was partly it, but I was also curious specifically why Simon would share it since my understanding is that he's banned Dan from the forum on multiple occasions, for expressing many of the same exact themes which riddle his "book". It seems bizarre to seemingly invite him back and to actively and repeatedly seem to plug his content when, if anything, he seems to have gotten much worse.

And that was before I'd even read the fucking thing.

I've just read as much of it as I could take. At one level it's simply an immensely tedious pile of drivel (IMO etc. etc., obviously). But at another it really stinks. As FD points out there are uncritical nods to a fascist philosopher and a Neo-Nazi cult associated with a number of crimes. There's anti-vax conspiracies, climate change denial, hints about the NWO and "cultural Marxism" (neither of which can ever be separated from anti-semitism), and various other unpleasant bigotries, as others have pointed out this morning.

Not to mention the casual misogyny and clear and obvious racism. The Instagram post Will shared is nothing compared to the corresponding article in the book. I mean FFS if the choice is between this and the cheerful and energetic psych for climbing that Lattice put out I'll happily tattoo the Lattice logo on my face.

There's plenty of space in climbing for some anti-establishment thinking and for advocating an approach to climbing which disregards numbers. It does not in any way follow that such thought processes should have to be accompanied by all of the abhorrent things espoused by Dan.

That doesn't mean I think it shouldn't be shared. But I wish it hadn't been.

[ducko]

On a serious note, it’s a man’s take on how he currently see things.

I actually find it pretty refreshing to see someone put effort into producing something that’s a little different and in my view comical.
I can see how it doesn’t appeal to all and that’s fine, different strokes different folks.

I think as an adult you need to approach everything with a certain degree of humility, even if you’re convinced on your conclusion it’s good to challenge what you believe even if it’s just to confirm your position.
Maybe some of the points touched on in this wee book are worth taking the time to ponder.

If everyone was the same the world would be a boring place so I say if someone’s not breaking the law or inciting violence then crack on.

As for this being described as ‘hate speech’ good luck defining something so vague as that.

Anyway, I’m off to draw a penis on a bathroom stall - good day to you all.

[Will Hunt]

The Instagram post Will shared is nothing compared to the corresponding article in the book.

The date on that Instagram post is the key. The day after Hamas went house to house and murdered hundreds of Israeli men, women, and children, Dan posts a picture of some Arab gunmen out on a "clean up". Disgraceful.

[stone]

What mystifies me about this is that face-to-face Dan has always seemed so friendly and polite.

When I last bumped into him at the crag, he actually mentioned how he had been banned from online climbing sites etc. I asked what that was about and he mentioned his transphobia and his anti-vax viewpoint. He seemed to genuinely believe it all himself. He talked about it in a very amicable, measured way.

I find all those views deeply abhorrent (and frankly dangerous to a decent society IMO), but Dan himself seems a nice guy.

[shark]

To give a less flippant reply; yes this was partly it, but I was also curious specifically why Simon would share it since my understanding is that he's banned Dan from the forum on multiple occasions, for expressing many of the same exact themes which riddle his "book". It seems bizarre to seemingly invite him back and to actively and repeatedly seem to plug his content when, if anything, he seems to have

This understanding isn’t correct.  Dan serially registered, caused a stir, then requested that his account/membership was deactivated. This happened I think three times. On the fourth occasion when he asked to be deactivated one of the moderators agreed with him that if he was deactivated then it was conditional with a cooling off period (six months IIRC). However, when he attempted to re-register by stealth before that period I deleted the account and told him he wouldn’t be allowed to re-register.

[Wellsy]

On a serious note, it’s a man’s take on how he currently see things

Sure, but also on a serious note, it's the take of a complete bellend

[SA Chris]

And if anyone describes it as a "hot take", they too are one.

[Moo]

I think as an adult you need to approach everything with a certain degree of humility, even if you’re convinced on your conclusion it’s good to challenge what you believe even if it’s just to confirm your position.
Maybe some of the points touched on in this wee book are worth taking the time to ponder.

Sorry Ducko but this defense is, at best, as tedious as the subject matter which it seeks to stand up for.

Trying to relegate this kind of nudge wink fringe drivel down to the level of ‘wee book worth pondering’, is akin to saying Mein Kampf is worth a whip through for the prose.

[Oldmanmatt]

Adulthood is hard.

Getting old is hard.

Realising that your impact on the world, even if you are “successful” is at best fleeting and more probably the dampest of squibs. That your cherished world view, is not universal. Accepting that you are not, actually, in control of your own destiny; let alone that of others.

All hard, all painful to a thinking individual (and a list that barely scratches the first few microns on the surface of the total you must confront).

Watching somebody drown in that. Seeing somebody descending into incoherent paranoia. Adopting hatred, anger and self righteous indignation, as some proxy for armour against the realities of life and difference.

Is hard.

It is, perhaps, even harder to be told by someone else*; that this is “art” and “worth pondering” . No, reading this (and I did, though regret doing so) is the intellectual equivalent of casually watching a fellow human being subjected to physical torture. Frankly my urge is to intervene and give relief, not celebrate it.

I find it telling that an individual can assert that the hatred and bile is “a valid view point worth pondering “ , yet criticism of that hatred and (clear) intolerance is, somehow, the real intolerance.

*Is it though? Is it someone else? Dan so frequently tried to populate this little world with imaginary, like minded, alter egos (better than confront his lonely reality, I guess).

[Oldmanmatt]

 Some interesting takes on “Freedom of speech” and sensitivity to criticism by some posters on this thread.
Definitely something worth taking some time to ponder.