[jwi]

Darth Grader, the most exacting philosopher of the French grading scales for bouldering and rock climber give you the "grade calculator". A new revolutionary tool to calculate the grade of any route based on its brake down in parts.

https://darth-grader.net/Console

For instance, an 8a+ route to a (G)ood rest, followed by a 7B+ boulder to a (M)edium rest to a 7A boulder is .... 8c!



I have a strong suspicion who is hiding behind the nom de plume, but will investigate further.

[Fiend]

Well the theory behind it: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1GR5O_9V3yJFU-nn295y0ImuoTl8lJazX/view will be some good bedtime reading 

[abarro81]

I played with a few examples... it seems to be right or +/- 1 with those that leapt to mind

[jwi]

Usually I find it harder to estimate the boulder grade of the crux, or the route grade of a part of a route than the grade of the entire route anyway...

But I find the calculator fascinating for edge cases. I tried it on stuff like boulder grades on 4x4s vs route grades and laps on easy routes vs route fitness, and it correlates pretty strongly with my experiences. (A 4x4 on 6B+s is 8a, 8 laps on a 7c is 8b, etc)

[Ru]

Seems basically right for the examples I used, bearing in mind that every small tweak to a grade or rest affects the outcome - so if you have a long string you can easily get a very wonky outcome by under/over estimating the difficulty of the sections or how
 good/bad the rests are.

Will - I thought the green trav was 7A - what did you enter to get 8a/+?

[Stu Littlefair]

I don’t like it. Rainshadow comes out as 8c+.

[User deactivated.]

I've done 4x4s on a 7B on my board. Does this mean I can take 9a for it?


Edit: my training notes say I failed on the 4th rep. 8c it is!

[petejh]

I don’t like it. Rainshadow comes out as 8c+.

What breakdown did you enter to get 8c+?

[jwi]

I've done 4x4s on a 7B on my board. Does this mean I can take 9a for it?


Edit: my training notes say I failed on the 4th rep. 8c it is!

No, but it indicates that you should be able to do 8c+ (5-7 s complete rest ≈ Medium rest). If you can't you are likely weak or have bad endurance? I never managed 4 different 7As in a row with 5s rest between, which would be ≈ 8b+

[duncan]

This is great.

Road Rage: 7a N 6B = 7b+
Empire: 6b+ B 6A+ N 6c = 7b
Clashing Socks: 6c G 6B = 7a+\7b


Also works for trad. routes!
Supersonic: E3h G E3h M E3 = E5s.

[edshakey]

you should be able to do 8c+. If you can't you are likely weak or have bad endurance

Motivational

[jwi]

you should be able to do 8c+. If you can't you are likely weak or have bad endurance

Motivational

:D

I was considering to tag on "... compared to your strength endurance" to the end of the sentence, but I changed my mind.

[User deactivated.]

you should be able to do 8c+. If you can't you are likely weak or have bad endurance

Motivational

:D

I was considering to tag on "... compared to your strength endurance" to the end of the sentence, but I changed my mind.

I am both weak (unless I can crimp at a high angle and lock off) and have atrocious endurance, hence I cannot climb anywhere near 8c+

[Stu Littlefair]

I don’t like it. Rainshadow comes out as 8c+.

8a M 8A B 8a/+

What breakdown did you enter to get 8c+?

[abarro81]

8a M 8A B 8a/+

That boulder - from rest to rest - would be 8A+ IMO. And add a plus for the start... And you get hard 9a... Bet you like it now!

[haydn jones]

mutation is 9b :D

[remus]

It's upgrading my hardest ascents so gets a thumbs up from me 

[jwi]

It's upgrading my hardest ascents so gets a thumbs up from me 

I tried the same trick on fb, but one of the guys who is responsible for the list of "benchmarks" they calibrated the model on brutally downgraded the boulder grades on the parts, and I ended up worse then before...

[edshakey]

Dawn Wall is 9b+ if you link it in one, good rest at each belay. Surprisingly low grade estimate imo. Now to find a 1000m rope and a tonne of quickdraws.

[jwi]

Dawn Wall is 9b+ if you link it in one, good rest at each belay. Surprisingly low grade estimate imo. Now to find a 1000m rope and a tonne of quickdraws.

Haha! Reminds me of a certain infamous onsight claim some ten years ago.

[remus]

Hot Fun Closing confirmed as a total sandbag at 8a.

[haydn jones]

More like 7B G 6C/6C+ bang on 8a! It works!

[Will Hunt]

I'm surprised it's able to be accurate when the rest elements are so subject. One man's medium rest is another's bad rest.
I keenly await jwi's sensitivity analysis on this parameter.

[petejh]

Slash grades for rests, obvs.
B/M

[remus]

More like 7B G 6C/6C+ bang on 8a! It works!

This is you on the top half 

[remus]

Slash grades for rests, obvs.
B+/M

[haydn jones]

More like 7B G 6C/6C+ bang on 8a! It works!

No it's not! It was my first 8a and at my limit at the time!

This is you on the top half 

[crimpinainteasy]

Apparently, I'm massively underachieving and should be able to climb 8a+ sport based on what I can do during 4x4s.

[jwi]

Apparently, I'm massively underachieving and should be able to climb 8a+ sport based on what I can do during 4x4s.

Just checking, I do not think you can use the grade calculator if you repeat the same boulder problem in the 4 x 4. If you can do 4 different 6B+ with 5s rest between, and they are sufficiently long (6-7 moves) I give you 7c+ or 8a or whatever, at least if you stop to clip a few times. If they are the same, and short, I give you 7a+....

[crimpinainteasy]

Apparently, I'm massively underachieving and should be able to climb 8a+ sport based on what I can do during 4x4s.

Just checking, I do not think you can use the grade calculator if you repeat the same boulder problem in the 4 x 4. If you can do 4 different 6B+ with 5s rest between, and they are sufficiently long (6-7 moves) I give you 7c+ or 8a or whatever, at least if you stop to clip a few times. If they are the same, and short, I give you 7a+....

yeah I can do 4 different 6B/+ boulders in a row

[andy moles]

Pivoting to UK trad grades...do those with more experience than I reckon that safe* 7c should be E7, or could it be hard E6?

*albeit with some slightly tricky gear for an on-sight attempt

[Fultonius]

I've always felt the "safe" end of the standard rockfax grade table potentially pushes too far up the sport grade range.



Examples of what I consider "safe" in the E4-E6 range and their sport grade:

(when I say safe, I mean the gear is regular and solid - even if strenuous to place)

Big Country Dreams, Cambusbarron E4: Fr 6c
Unleash the Beast, Ardmair, E4.5 6c/+?
Spirit Air, Loch Maree: (slightly bold at start but easier...so) E5: 7a
Chemin de Fer, Dumby E5.5 :7a+
Contortionism, Cambusbarron E6: 7a+/b (but just very techy)

I would put all of those is the "as safe as a sport route" category and all end up being being a full French lower than their "safe" ratings.

That said, the sport routes at Tunnel Wall used to all get E6 and they are all either F7b, or F7c+..........

[andy moles]

That said, the sport routes at Tunnel Wall used to all get E6 and they are all either F7b, or F7c+..........

Yeah, I suspect there are other oldschool limestone ones as well, possibly peg or partially bolt protected, which are 7c or even 7c+. I dunno if that was grade compression or overcompensating for the fixed gear or what, but I'd guess they'd be regarded as sandbags now?

I bet there are quite a few such E6s out there that are realistically quite a bit harder to on-sight than some popular boldish E7s. Which doesn't really help me 

[rjtrials]

Apparently, I'm massively underachieving and should be able to climb 8a+ sport based on what I can do during 4x4s.

Just checking, I do not think you can use the grade calculator if you repeat the same boulder problem in the 4 x 4. If you can do 4 different 6B+ with 5s rest between, and they are sufficiently long (6-7 moves) I give you 7c+ or 8a or whatever, at least if you stop to clip a few times. If they are the same, and short, I give you 7a+....

I have found doing different boulders in a 4x4 or similar to be vastly easier then doing the same boulder.  My hypothesis is that because my hands are very weak for the grade(s) i climb, that grabbing the same holds repeatedly is more difficult than using slightly different hand shapes and grips.

[Fultonius]

That said, the sport routes at Tunnel Wall used to all get E6 and they are all either F7b, or F7c+..........

Yeah, I suspect there are other oldschool limestone ones as well, possibly peg or partially bolt protected, which are 7c or even 7c+. I dunno if that was grade compression or overcompensating for the fixed gear or what, but I'd guess they'd be regarded as sandbags now?

I bet there are quite a few such E6s out there that are realistically quite a bit harder to on-sight than some popular boldish E7s. Which doesn't really help me 

I'd err on E7 but it's all a nudge above my paygrade to realistically opine.  All depends on how obvious the gear is, how sustained the route is (although that would probably come into the "7c" bit) and how "theoretically onsightable" it was. I could see a pure 7c crack getting E6 (just, maybe?).

[duncan]

Keeping things warm for those actually qualified to answer, the Pembroke select guidebook usefully proposes sport grades alongside trad. I had a quick look.

Of 30 or so E6s, all were 7a-7b+ except for a sole 7c. This tricky number has had no recorded onsights and required innovative tactics for the first ascentionist. It is in Caff’s list of good E6s but obviously that’s no guarantee of anything.  Sounds like 7c is likely to be a nails E6 at minimum, which will make it harder than some E7s…

What would Mat Wright say?



 

[remus]

Pivoting to UK trad grades...do those with more experience than I reckon that safe* 7c should be E7, or could it be hard E6?

*albeit with some slightly tricky gear for an on-sight attempt

I haven't done many E6s, but for me the gear would need to be totally straightforward for it to be 7c and E6. Something like Bold as Love in Avon is 7b+/c and the hard bit is protected by bolts and pegs.

A38 at trym valley is perhaps another good example. Given E6 and probably 7b+ and protected by straightforward cams in a crack most of the way.

If the gear is at all fiddly I'd say E7 is fair.

[andy popp]

I haven't done many E6s, but for me the gear would need to be totally straightforward for it to be 7c and E6. Something like Bold as Love in Avon is 7b+/c and the hard bit is protected by bolts and pegs.

A38 at trym valley is perhaps another good example. Given E6 and probably 7b+ and protected by straightforward cams in a crack most of the way.

If the gear is at all fiddly I'd say E7 is fair.

These French grades seem a little high, unless they've both broken?

I think its conceivable that a safe 7c could be E6, but most won't be.

[remus]

I haven't done many E6s, but for me the gear would need to be totally straightforward for it to be 7c and E6. Something like Bold as Love in Avon is 7b+/c and the hard bit is protected by bolts and pegs.

A38 at trym valley is perhaps another good example. Given E6 and probably 7b+ and protected by straightforward cams in a crack most of the way.

If the gear is at all fiddly I'd say E7 is fair.

These French grades seem a little high, unless they've both broken?

I think its conceivable that a safe 7c could be E6, but most won't be.

Fair cop, it's a while since I did them and I was trying to think of examples that might qualify so was probably being a bit generous with the french grades.