[Jackob]

Sorry for the slightly punter question but Im trying to understand the best way to equip a sport climb from the base in order to TR solo it when you cant get round to the top of the crag to reach the anchor. I can think of a few different ways of doing it but would like to hear some safe tried and tested methods. I own all the usual gear microtraxion/grigri/jumar ect. The route in question is Doctor Evil at Chapel Head.

Thanks

 

[Johnny Brown]

Aid up with a clipstick and grigri.

[jwi]

+1. I have never seen another method.

I would only do this if the bolts were good, as you are going to be jumaring (grigri + jumar) on a single bolt without backup until you have clipped about 5 bolts (assuming normal bolting) and as you will not be able to inspect the bolts that you clip from below with the stick clip.

[Johnny Brown]

I had assumed there was an access restriction on top down access, but it doesn't look like there is. Just walk round to the top?

[T_B]

+1. I have never seen another method.

Well, apart from the USA where ground up bolting is the ethic in some areas. So they drill a shit load of rivet holes to get the bolts in rather than rap from above. Always struck me as very strange!

[Jackob]

Aid up with a clipstick and grigri.

This is the method id assumed most used. Just seemed slightly sketchy only being on one bolt the whole time.

[Simon P]

+1. I have never seen another method.

I would only do this if the bolts were good, as you are going to be jumaring (grigri + jumar) on a single bolt without backup until you have clipped about 5 bolts (assuming normal bolting) and as you will not be able to inspect the bolts that you clip from below with the stick clip.

If you're just sitting on the bolt and using a clip stick to move the rope up a few more bolts, jumaring up, rinse repeat, how does this get safer after the 5th bolt?  Or is there some alternative method?

[AJM]

If you don't want to be entirely reliant on one bolt the whole time (the rope always doing a tie-in to bolt to grigri loop and no more, the rope below you slack and unanchored) you can put a screwgate on the bottom bolt or build a ground anchor and lead clipstick solo it (so the rope goes up through all the bolts under tension and ends at a grigri or similar on your harness).

That is a method where once you are high enough you have more than one point of failure.

[kc]

I've been setting ropes up for rebolting work for years now and this is usually a solo effort when there is nobody around with awkward access around the top.
As mentioned above I used to just stick clip with a loop a gri gri and a Jumar but I have abandoned that approach years ago because after all I am rebolting a route with questionable bolts.
My method now is to tie a fig 8 and a quickdraw into each end of the rope and leap frog between the bolts. There is no rope tied into my harness. Just use a combination of gri gris and a shunt or device of your choice plus a jumar. This way you are always attached to a couple of bolts. It is also much easier to stick clip long distances with an end of rope not a loop.

[Duncan campbell]

The obvious way to keep yourself on 2 bolts after the start would be;

Tie fig 8 and clip to 1st bolt.
Stick clip bolt 2 with loop of rope.
Go in hard to bolt 2
Tie alpine butterfly in rope So that it equalises bolt 1 and bolt 2
Continue clipsticking up, leaving rope clipped to bolts thus you will be on a minimum of 2 bolts at all times.

Think this is probably what everyone above has been getting at but not actually fully explaining.

[kc]

That is certainly a good way. Often I'll be equipping an adjacent line so am keen to strip as I go then stick clip horizontally to the belay of the route I'll be working on.

[Duncan campbell]

Ah yeah this was more directed at op than you - I imagine you have your systems dialled

[jwi]

The obvious way to keep yourself on 2 bolts after the start would be;

Tie fig 8 and clip to 1st bolt.
Stick clip bolt 2 with loop of rope.
Go in hard to bolt 2
Tie alpine butterfly in rope So that it equalises bolt 1 and bolt 2
Continue clipsticking up, leaving rope clipped to bolts thus you will be on a minimum of 2 bolts at all times.

Think this is probably what everyone above has been getting at but not actually fully explaining.

This is the system most people use, I would just do a clove hitch or a figure of eight on the bight for the second bolt. (Alpine butterflies are for rock climbing instructors, normal climbers only ever need to know three knots:) )

If you're just sitting on the bolt and using a clip stick to move the rope up a few more bolts, jumaring up, rinse repeat, how does this get safer after the 5th bolt?  Or is there some alternative method?

If the bolt you stick clip to blows when you commit to ascend the rope you deck thanks to the sudden slack in the system unless you are pretty high up a route. I knew I had read about a fatal accident like this, and a quick spot of googling turned up this:

http://publications.americanalpineclub.org/articles/13201213409/Fall-On-Rock-Bolt-Failure-Rope-Soloing

[Johnny Brown]

(Alpine butterflies are for rock climbing instructors, normal climbers only ever need to know three knots:) )

Fig-8, clove hitch, bowline? Reminds me of Waldo's mocking nickname for Leo - 'One-knot'.

Ironically I've climbed with a lot of instructors, a few of whom knew the retarded round-the-hand method of tying an alpine butterfly but none could deploy actually deploy one usefully. Whereas I consider them the queen of knots. Having learnt them in rope access, I use them all the time climbing to equalise belays where climbers typically use some shit sling arrangement. There is also an almost mathematical beauty to their construction too; two overhands intertwined in mirror symmetry.

The other knot I'd recommend any multi-pitch tradster learning is what I call the step-through bowline - a bowline in the bight tied into the harness - which is both the neatest and most elegant method of tying into the middle of the rope and also completely eliminates the one glaring issue with bowlines, that they come undone.

[jwi]

(Alpine butterflies are for rock climbing instructors, normal climbers only ever need to know three knots:) )

Fig-8, clove hitch, bowline? Reminds me of Waldo's mocking nickname for Leo - 'One-knot'.

Figure of 8, overhand and clove hitch, in that order. (I do not practice what I preach as an ill-spent youth on various sailing boats equipped me with more knots than I know what to do with...)

[andy moles]

(Alpine butterflies are for rock climbing instructors, normal climbers only ever need to know three knots:) )

Having learnt them in rope access, I use them all the time climbing to equalise belays where climbers typically use some shit sling arrangement.

Intrigued, can you explain how you use them in belays and the advantages?

I've tended to side with jwi that anything you do with an alpine butterfly you can do equally well with an overhand, but I'm always keen to improve my practices.

[Fultonius]

(Alpine butterflies are for rock climbing instructors, normal climbers only ever need to know three knots:) )

Having learnt them in rope access, I use them all the time climbing to equalise belays where climbers typically use some shit sling arrangement.

Intrigued, can you explain how you use them in belays and the advantages?

I've tended to side with jwi that anything you do with an alpine butterfly you can do equally well with an overhand, but I'm always keen to improve my practices.

If you have 3 points to equalise with an ab-rope (sea cliff is a good example) it's really quick to adjust the centre-point (and hence equalisation) by pulling more slack through and making the alpine butterfly's (ABF) loop quite big.

Better explained here: 

I much prefer it to using slings when I know I'm going to load it, as:

- You can extend to much bigger distances
- It's all a bit dyanmic, so much better load sharing
- it's much easier to untie.

You can cascade multiple "Ys" with more butterflies and equalise each one.
 

[andy moles]

If you have 3 points to equalise with an ab-rope (sea cliff is a good example) it's really quick to adjust the centre-point (and hence equalisation) by pulling more slack through and making the alpine butterfly's (ABF) loop quite big.

Yeah I use that same system a lot only with overhands, when JB said in belays I thought he meant when tied in to the rope but maybe I presumed wrong.

[Johnny Brown]

Yeah, same principle as above. Don't tie them like in that video though.

Normal trad belay is two clove hitches to two good pieces with the lead lines, which works fine but if you want more pieces then the best way is to create 'Y's with alpines. Overhands will work but 'equally well' no way, they don't sit or take the load nicely and lack the ability to easily adjust the strands independently. Multiple clove hitches are equally clumsy. Once you get to the point of not finding them cognitively harder than an 8 or overhand I find you tend to prefer alpines in many situations just for the adjustability.

[jwi]

I do not like to use the rope at all for the belay. All belays should have a central point, be easy to escape, already set for rappel if thunderstorms hit, and it should be quick to change leader if necessary. (My point of view obviously changed when I moved from northern Scandinavia to southern Europe. But I had already stopped using the rope for belays for anything longer than a few pitches before I moved down.)

[petejh]

+1 to what JB says about alpines for equalising belays; better than overhands for adjustability and untying after being loaded; and very simple to tie quickly once they become instinctive, which doesn't take long. While agreeing with jwi for long stuff it's faster to use a sling or two but we're talking about the difference between a 2-3 pitch UK route purely on gear in awkward positions versus a euro long multipitch with 2 nicely-positioned bolts aren't we.

For clipsticking up routes the three main methods are, in order of least faff/no redundancy to most faff/most redundancy:
1. the usual method of a single line with loop in end clipped to one bolt. Deck awaits if bolt fails.
2. the leapfrog method KC describes with two ends. One bolt below as back-up, big swingy fall but won't deck from high.
3. the method Duncan describes. Similar to leading, without a soft catch.

Like KC I've done literally hundreds (thousands?) of solo clipsticking routes whilst out re-equipping by myself. It is a risk, and I treat it as a risk-assessment exercise. I'll only ever use it on bolts that I know are a) expansions (or glue-ins) not the really old knock-ins like in the AAC accident link. b) not very badly corroded (not that you can always know) and c) test with bodyweight the first bolt from the ground. None of those three things makes the risk zero. If I'm unsure and there's no other way to top of the cliff (but there nearly always is with some faff and multiple long ropes), I use the leapfrog method but probably 95% single bolt method. I've snapped three clip-sticked bolts from bodyweight testing from the ground so it does happen. All George Smith routes pre-stainless

If you aren't doing it regularly then may as well make it faffy, slow and as safe as possible. It's when doing it loads that the time element becomes more salient. And yes doing it loads makes the probability higher that eventually you'll find a bad bolt, so my risk assessment should be the opposite in a rational world.

[Fultonius]

I do not like to use the rope at all for the belay. All belays should have a central point, be easy to escape, already set for rappel if thunderstorms hit, and it should be quick to change leader if necessary. (My point of view obviously changed when I moved from northern Scandinavia to southern Europe. But I had already stopped using the rope for belays for anything longer than a few pitches before I moved down.)

Jonas, I think we're talking at crossed purposes here. I don't think anyone is advocating for the use of a rope-equalised belay on a multi-pitch route in the alps or equivalent!  (well, I'm not for sure - perfectly happy with a sliding cross sling belay off two bolts or bomber bits of gear). 

I had to do a 5 piece belay in Anglesey the other day, one of which was 8-10m from the belay point. An alpine butterfly (or just a clove hitch for that matter) with a short tail leading to the belayer with a direct belay off the centre point can be quick, equalised and escapable. The subject is a bit too broad-ranging and case-specific to say any one which way is best in all situations.

JB - what's your preference for the two-loop tie method on the ABF? (rather than the 3-wrap method shown in the video?)

Topic Split?

[Johnny Brown]

Twist, twist.



Once proficient, you tend to tie longer loops with just the top strand rather than the full loop.

I do not like to use the rope at all for the belay.

Interesting. Are you climbing on a single rope? Do you use a cordelette or are the belays generally straightforward? Keen to hear the thunderstorm stories!

[Fultonius]

Twist, twist.



Once proficient, you tend to tie longer loops with just the top strand rather than the full loop.

Ah....forgot that way - I was thinking of the reverse clove hitch method. Might adopt that one, thanks!

[jwi]

I do not like to use the rope at all for the belay.

Interesting. Are you climbing on a single rope? Do you use a cordelette or are the belays generally straightforward? Keen to hear the thunderstorm stories!

I climb on single + tag line most of the time, but on double/twins when I can climb with approach shoes, water bottle and rain jacket clipped to the harness. Rarely with doubles + haul line.

Most of the times the belays are really straightforward (two bolts, sometimes but not always already connected for rappel). I am not the only one who have gotten caught in a 'surprising' afternoon thunderstorm. It is unpleasant, wet and very cold. I think this is the main reason belays tend to be good even if everything else is shit, or why 'unnecessary' fixed pitons are tapped in and left in place on routes that otherwise have no or very little fixed gear.

For bolted belays with two good bolts I find that climbing partners from Scandinavia and UK have lots of habits that are good when the belays are complex and the points are spread out but make it take forever to set up a belay. If they take more than thirty seconds to connect the points, clip in and start pulling in rope I will give them a lecture in my most hectoring voice. (I have done this more than once). It drives me crazy when partners start to equalise 12 mm bolts in bomber rock with a sling with a knot in it, making the belay overall about one third as strong as any of the individual parts.

I never use a cordelette, I have one, but surely no one has that much space on their harness? I cannot remember the last time I couldn't build a belay with gear and whatever slings I have left after the pitch, but I guess then it would be time to be non-dogmatic and use the rope/s?

[petejh]

It drives me crazy when partners start to equalise 12 mm bolts in bomber rock with a sling with a knot in it, making the belay overall about one third as strong as any of the individual parts.

 
This x 10.

[Paul B]

Ah yeah this was more directed at op than you - I imagine you have your systems dialled

I'm with Duncan on this. Top stepping can also make things quite fast if used appropriately.

I (ab)used the alpine butterfly a lot when in the States for bigger stuff when hauling/cleaning; straight into one bolt with plenty of slack for me to be effective when hauling 2:1(at this point second can start stripping the belay) and AB into any remaining bolts to fix for the second. It's very fast and very adjustable; in that scenario I'm not looking for escapable as I was dragging my house with me.

[andy moles]

I do not like to use the rope at all for the belay. All belays should have a central point, be easy to escape, already set for rappel if thunderstorms hit, and it should be quick to change leader if necessary.

+1 to this, I will continue to do some 'shit arrangement' with slings for these reasons (even if thunderstorms aren't usually a concern in the UK). Talking multi-pitch here obviously, it doesn't really matter a toss what you do at the top of a single pitch as long as it's safe and efficient.

I don't tend to have much issue with adjusting and untying overhands I must say, but I'll take on what JB and PH have said and try using butterflies more often.

[andy moles]

+1 to this, I will continue to do some 'shit arrangement' with slings for these reasons

And a few other reasons as well - facility to belay direct from the anchor for all the reasons it might be preferable to do that, coping with any shenanigans like hoisting etc, giving partner a convenient equalised attachment point while swapping gear etc.

[jwi]

I've been setting ropes up for rebolting work for years now and this is usually a solo effort when there is nobody around with awkward access around the top.
As mentioned above I used to just stick clip with a loop a gri gri and a Jumar but I have abandoned that approach years ago because after all I am rebolting a route with questionable bolts.
My method now is to tie a fig 8 and a quickdraw into each end of the rope and leap frog between the bolts. There is no rope tied into my harness. Just use a combination of gri gris and a shunt or device of your choice plus a jumar. This way you are always attached to a couple of bolts. It is also much easier to stick clip long distances with an end of rope not a loop.

To drag this back on topic, I am not sure I completely understand this method, but I like the idea of stick clipping a single rope, not doubled back, to the next bolt (if I understood correctly).

I think I will do this next time: lead solo as usual with a grigri and backup knots and the whole shebang on a regular lead rope while doing the aiding by stick clipping a short bit of rope with jumars attached to it. That way, even if the bolt high above me that I commit to blows I just take a normal (self-belayed) lead fall. This should be as quick as the normal method and substantially safer!

The only drawback I see is that I would have to bring 7-8 m of tat, and possibly a second jumar if the route is very steep and I want to ascend the rope using the grigri+jumar method.

[MischaHY]

Edit: I wrote what was already written 

[abarro81]

Kristian - to clarify, are you clip sticking 2 bolts ahead? So you sit on bolt 1 and stick 2 and 3, then unclip from 1 and move to 2 and stick 4 from there, move to 3 and stick 5 etc.. I like the idea of being able to take the gear out as you go like this