[Bonjoy]

Obviously it's all speculation. As you say there are other causes of depopulation in rural areas e.g. potato famine in Ireland. To my eye though the shear quantity of abandoned ruins suggest that even if there had been decline due to other factors a significant number of places would have survived and gone on to seed rural population centres and infrastructure. I can't think of anywhere else with quite as many abandoned rural dwellings, here or abroad.

[GazM]

I didn't see what all the fuss was about regarding overcrowing/busyness etc.

Shifting baseline syndrome perhaps? If you come from England you're probably used to there being hundreds of people everywhere! I'm always shocked how busy places like the Peak are (and how trashed the popular venues are). Being a grumpy old fart I remember the days when you'd never see another soul at Torridon, now that would be rare. So long as everyone looks after the place and is respectful it's grand, but it's inevitable that with more people comes more arseholes.

And as SA Chris said, it's not that tourism and busyness are bad per se, its the speed at which it has occurred and the lack of planning to accomodate or mitigate for it.

[T_B]

Yeah we were in Torridon/Applecross last May half term and it didn’t seem busy to me. But my base line is the Peak District and the Lakes!

[scragrock]

I am less concerned about small numbers of climbers/boulderers visiting as they tend to have a reasonable idea of how to behave in terms of impact on specific areas.
I do have an issue with massive campervans, convoys of sports cars and Bikes jamming up single track roads across the Highlands, using/spoiling areas and facilities not designed for those numbers.
Highland Council recently made a statement announcing that they could no longer repair or attend to the road network, remembering that it is the largest council area in Scotland with a labyrinth of rural roads with the smallest budget.

How about we tax some of the Billionaire Estate owners specifically to fix/improve the infrastructure in the Highlands....Oh No we cant because we don't actually know who owns most of Scotland.

I Don't buy the "its not that busy" argument as it doesn't address the underlying issues or make it right.

There are great examples of responsible controlled tourism around the world that we could with a bit of thought and agreement implement so that future generations can experience the awe inspiring wildness of our fab wee part of the world. 

[spidermonkey09]

Think its definitely a shifting baseline thing. I take your point re planning and mitigation but I do also think the NC500 has proved more popular than anyone thought, alongside the covid enforced imperative to holiday at home. Infrastructure always lags behind development; just look at housing example; houses get built, then schools and roads get improved to suit the new traffic levels. I would agree this isnt ideal but my point is more that its not unique.

How about we tax some of the Billionaire Estate owners specifically to fix/improve the infrastructure in the Highlands....Oh No we cant because we don't actually know who owns most of Scotland.

I Don't buy the "its not that busy" argument as it doesn't address the underlying issues or make it right.
 

I would be totally on board with this, both in England and Scotland, but its pie in the sky stuff as things stand (we don't know who owns England either). I guess my point is that compared to the effects of tourism on the Peak I actually think the highlands is pretty low priority, the numbers involved are an order of magnitude different. Yeah, it doesn't make it right, but a lot of the criticism of the NC500 I see (not on here, more on the FB group) smacks to me, as an outsider, more of locals being upset they don't have it to themselves anymore than anything else. The same attitude was on display in the english National Parks during the last few years of covid.

That said, if I could turn the clock back I wouldn't go ahead with the NC500 either! I just think these things are probably viewed very differently by Highlands residents than by those visiting, as is inevitable. The Lakes is probably the closest thing to a corollary in England; small roads with too much traffic, poor nfrastructure etc, but as a frequent visitor there, outside of honeypots I think things are broadly ok there too. I'm sure the Lakes locals would profoundly disagree but I don't see theres a lot that can be done beyond making massive roads?

I live in Manchester and the roads are shite here too, getting anywhere at rush hour takes forever and public transport is dross. This affects more people every day than overcrowding in the Highlands or Lakes in the summer; to play devils advocate, what should be the priority? Ultimately the problem is too many people and short of a China style one child policy I don't see too many solutions.

[andy_e]

Most locals are also aggreived by the NC500 as it doesn't contribute much money to the local economy. Most money goes into Inshes Tesco or large hospitality groups that are buying up establishments all over the route. Add in to that aggresive tax avoidance, and no extra money is generated for Highland Council to maintain single track roads, empty overflowing bins, clean toilets and showers blocked up by people emptying chemical bogs into them, cleaning up dumped tents, and fighting fires caused by people having uncontrolled wild campfires despite the Highlands once again being very dry this year. A tourist tax would help to alleviate this, but it's hard to implement for those staying in campervans.

[Bonjoy]

I Don't buy the "its not that busy" argument as it doesn't address the underlying issues or make it right.

Is there an argument being made that it's not too busy? I'm only saying 'busy' is massively relative/subjective, very location specific, and inevitably coloured by people's previous experience/expectation of numbers. Couldn't agree more though that places will feel subjectively busier and more pressured where facilities are inadequate.


I think part of the increased popularity of Scotland is also related to people wishing to holiday in the UK instead of flying abroad, in an effort to reduce their personal carbon footprint. Which inevitably imposes a cost (and some benefits) on the areas seeing more visitors, but is I expect something most people would see as a net positive for society and the environment.


Also what spidermonkey90 said.

[SA Chris]

We're all straying off topic now. matt 463, don't let our ramblings put you off, if you come in late Autumn, based on a good forecast, once the midgies have subsided you will have a fantastic time.

[andy_e]

Here's some Scottish beach bouldering that probably won't be busy... https://scottishbloc.com/2022/06/22/st-andrews-bouldering/

[SA Chris]

The most popular tourist town in Scotland? Sure the beach might be quiet, but you still need to find somewhere to park. Looks like a nice wee spot though. Reminds me, there are a few tidal blocks beneath Pittenweem i found, but never climbed.

[scragrock]

The most popular tourist town in Scotland? Sure the beach might be quiet, but you still need to find somewhere to park. Looks like a nice wee spot though. Reminds me, there are a few tidal blocks beneath Pittenweem i found, but never climbed.

Well said we are way off topic.

St Andrew's "World class" bouldering, Really?

Pittenweem's a shitehole of a town much like the rest of the East Neuk, don't go there.

[andy moles]

Historically speaking the highlands are kind of 'artificially' under inhabited and quiet due to the clearances. You only have to observe the huge quantity of abandoned crofts in truly remote areas all over the place to wonder how things would be if this had never happened. Presumably many of these crofts would now be villages, there would be many more roads and tourist numbers would be huge. If it weren't for a brutal historic act of mass theft and cruelty things would probably be so much worse.
Maybe I have a different perspective on crowded, coming from living on the edge of the peak district. Mostly on the west coast I see pockets of crowding around campsites, towns, popular roadside instragramy photo locations, and very easily accessible beaches, but it's generally quiet to the point of empty within 10-30 mins walk of these places, and lets face it most of Scotland is a lot further than 10-30 mins walk from a tourist hotspot.

Sorry to indulge the but...

It's probably true that the Highlands would be more densely populated if not for the Clearances (though as pointed out it's hard to say to what extent given other historical and geographical contingencies), but irrespective of root causes, is it wrong to have a preference for an experience of seclusion to crowds? Is the perpetual traffic jam that is how I usually experience England in some way preferable because it's a more just or 'natural' way of things? Yes it could be worse, but I'm not sure bearing in mind the Clearances while sitting behind a motorhome trundling along at 20 on a singletrack makes me feel any happier about it!

You are right of course, that it's not hard to get away from the crowds. They're just a pain in the arse.

[Bonjoy]

...is it wrong to have a preference for an experience of seclusion to crowds? Is the perpetual traffic jam that is how I usually experience England in some way preferable because it's a more just or 'natural' way of things? Yes it could be worse, but I'm not sure bearing in mind the Clearances while sitting behind a motorhome trundling along at 20 on a singletrack makes me feel any happier about it!

Nobody (on here) prefers it busy.
The point regards the clearances is that, given there nothing you/we can do to change numbers (except stay at home and reduce the crowd by one), it might be a source of blood pressure lowering perspective, to contemplate, while stuck behind #NC500wanker, that things would likely be much worse were it not for some evil bastards back in the day.

[tim palmer]

Here's some Scottish beach bouldering that probably won't be busy... https://scottishbloc.com/2022/06/22/st-andrews-bouldering/

Nope, it looks like they have been forgotten since I climbed the very same problems 20 years ago

[gardinrm]

that things would likely be much worse were it not for some evil bastards back in the day.

It would also look profoundly different. The clearances were enacted to enable a different type of land management (to make money), including things like developing large scale sheep farming and hunting/shooting/fishing preserves. A previous comment discussed the 'spoiling of the machair', but whenever I go to Sheigra there are always sheep grazing: all this land is (in a sense) already 'spoiled'.

That aside, I was indeed shocked last Summer. I've spent part of every year since I was born in the North West, and it was absolute carnage last year. I like Bonjoy's left-learning optimism that this related to carbon footprint: I think difficulties with flights to the Costa del Sol was the real culprit. And so I do think this will ease. Perhaps not to what it was before, but ease nonetheless. Once the 'fad' people have done it once, are they really going to do it again?

And Sheigra typically avoided the majority of this traffic because its not on the NC500. I've always noticed the drop in traffic when turning off from Rhiconich. So I expect things will turn back to normal. If vehicles are banned, can we still park at the cemetery and walk in with our kit to camp? Or is the campsite closed fully?

[andy moles]

Once the 'fad' people have done it once, are they really going to do it again?

I sometimes think this about the Three Peaks Challenge: hasn't everyone who wants to do the fucking thing done it by now?! But they keep coming... 

[Bonjoy]

that things would likely be much worse were it not for some evil bastards back in the day.

It would also look profoundly different. The clearances were enacted to enable a different type of land management (to make money), including things like developing large scale sheep farming and hunting/shooting/fishing preserves. A previous comment discussed the 'spoiling of the machair', but whenever I go to Sheigra there are always sheep grazing: all this land is (in a sense) already 'spoiled'.

That aside, I was indeed shocked last Summer. I've spent part of every year since I was born in the North West, and it was absolute carnage last year. I like Bonjoy's left-learning optimism that this related to carbon footprint: I think difficulties with flights to the Costa del Sol was the real culprit. And so I do think this will ease. Perhaps not to what it was before, but ease nonetheless. Once the 'fad' people have done it once, are they really going to do it again?

And Sheigra typically avoided the majority of this traffic because its not on the NC500. I've always noticed the drop in traffic when turning off from Rhiconich. So I expect things will turn back to normal. If vehicles are banned, can we still park at the cemetery and walk in with our kit to camp? Or is the campsite closed fully?

 
I'm certainly not suggesting the clearances were a good thing for people or the land. Just that the Highlands would be more populated and more tourist friendly, therefore busy, if not for them.
I'm also not saying that busyness is a result of carbon contiousness. Just noting that it is a contributory factor. It's certainly a factor in the frequency of my visits to Scotland, various people I know, and visitors I've met while there. And no I'm not claiming that's a representative, typical, or significant sample of visitors. Nor suggesting this accounts for a significant number of the NC500 goons but who knows, maybe it is a factor even for the heaving masses.

I can't see the NC500 effect wearing off. It's become firmly lodged in the public contiousness. Lots of people do the same holiday over and over again. I don't think it's reached viral popularity. More obviously, it's the most beautiful bit of our island, and people want to go there when they realise this. It's pretty crazy it's  taken so long for the general populace to notice.

[SA Chris]

St Andrew's "World class" bouldering, Really?

Pittenweem's a shitehole of a town much like the rest of the East Neuk, don't go there.

I think that's tongue in cheek. And we just stopped in Pittenween for a short break one Easter. Agree East Neuk is not the most exciting area, unless you like golf. I don't.

[scragrock]

St Andrew's "World class" bouldering, Really?

Pittenweem's a shitehole of a town much like the rest of the East Neuk, don't go there.

I think that's tongue in cheek. And we just stopped in Pittenween for a short break one Easter. Agree East Neuk is not the most exciting area, unless you like golf. I don't.

Aye but having spent time on that coast i can assure anyone the climbing will be ok at best, I grew up in the East Neuk{Cellardyke} so i am aware of its flaws{i was joking...kind of about Pittenweem} It does have some interesting history and the Sea kayaking is good. Isle of May is worth a visit.

[SA Chris]

I actually ran the section of the path past Buddo Rock to see how shit it really was. It makes even some parts of the Moray Coast seem solid.

[Fultonius]

St Andrew's "World class" bouldering, Really?

Pittenweem's a shitehole of a town much like the rest of the East Neuk, don't go there.

I think that's tongue in cheek. And we just stopped in Pittenween for a short break one Easter. Agree East Neuk is not the most exciting area, unless you like golf. I don't.

Is East Neuk as funny/rude in SA as it is in NL Chris? 

Spent way to many days of my life in Methil over the last few years. Glad to have that behind me now.

[SA Chris]

Don't know, it means hit, defeat or "nail" in Afrikaans depending on context?

[GazM]

Still off topic, but it's one close to my heart as a Highlands resident: another victim of recent busyness/popularity/twattishness is the farmer blocking the usual Reiff parking spot with old machinery. It's still possible to park sensibly not too far away but you can't help but feel unwelcome, having parked in the old spot with no issues for the preceding 15 years.

The clearances discussion is an interesting one. If these 'remote' areas had remained peopled would they now have infrastructure that could support such popularity? Who can say. How does it compare to similar places without the clearance history? Norway perhaps? I suspect more recent politics and economics might have bigger impacts.

[SA Chris]

Were there clearances throughout Scotland? If not, surely the rural population of those unaffected could give an indication?

Saw unaware of the actions of the farmer, seems a bit nasty.

[GazM]

Re. Reiff parking, it seems the farmers got fed up with large numbers parking and sometimes blocking the gate, camping when asked not to etc. There's a discussion about it in the comments under this FB photo, including input from one of the farmers.
http://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=pfbid02KFS1A2XrKw2viPKRpJqXcVb6o5Js5s2SNh3Bnqtiww6ZPA7PiohePQVeLKxKG11bl&id=100238796980942&__tn__=%2AW-R