[crimpinainteasy]

If you have a dream where you tick a route can you still claim the flash?

[mrjonathanr]

. IMO it's perfectly valid to try to define what "counts" as a flash, and someone trying something hard in this style is likely to bring up that discussion

A flash is doing it first time you pull on and attempt it, that much is obvious. That’s where the otiose term ‘onsight sight flash’ came from, to distinguish from an attempt with prior knowledge.

I agree, abseil inspection isn’t quite playing the game in respect of what people think when they hear ‘flash’ but it is one nonetheless if the moves haven’t been tried. We have ground up to clarify things further.

I’d have abbed it, if I had James’ talent and a modest desire to stay alive.

[kingholmesy]

Seems like I’m swimming against the tide, but personally I would still call it a flash if you’ve abbed down it and looked at the holds and checked the gear, so long as you haven’t pulled on and tried the moves.

Obviously doing so gives you more insight than just being told some beta, but I then it is still short of head/redpointing.

Maybe my view is skewed by mostly being a trad climber, and often on sea cliffs where it feels natural to ab in and have a peek on the way.

Maybe I just have lax ethics - at my lowly level I’m happy to have a quick look on ab and this is still a more fulfilling experience, closer to the onsight/ground up end of the spectrum than pre-practising stuff.

[andy moles]

Does any of this matter except to satisfy the demand for a shorthand way of quantifying how impressive an ascent is?

The spectrum of shenanigans that can take place can't be meaningfully contained by so few categories. If it matters, i.e. if it's an ascent that anyone but the climber cares about, then the facts of what happened should be stated and anyone who cares can decide for themselves which box to put it in.

[shark]

Does any of this matter except to satisfy the demand for a shorthand way of quantifying how impressive an ascent is?

The spectrum of shenanigans that can take place can't be meaningfully contained by so few categories. If it matters, i.e. if it's an ascent that anyone but the climber cares about, then the facts of what happened should be stated and anyone who cares can decide for themselves which box to put it in.

Quite. The language is already there and commonly understood. If Pearson hadn’t mis-described his attempt we wouldn’t be having this discussion.

[abarro81]

it is one nonetheless

Curiously definitive wording to use. If the whole thread shows anything it's that there's disagreement - between plenty of reasonable and experienced climbers - on whether it is one... Just because you write it doesn't make it so.

[Kingy]

When I used to trad climb regularly in Pembroke and Gogarth back in the day, I used to avert my eyes on the abseil where there was a chance of glimpsing any of the route I intended to climb on the way back out. If I got a glimpse of any part of the climb I couldn't 'unsee' I used to feel guilty about claiming the onsight but then saw that others weren't so bothered.

I guess for a flash its perhaps a different, less strict yardstick and if the likes of Ondra are getting video link footage of holds then that is different. You wonder why Ondra didn't just ab Biographie himself? Seems a pretty fine distinction - his girlfriend giving hold detail from the route is OK but not for him to do the same? 

[36chambers]

A flash is doing it first time you pull on and attempt it, that much is obvious.

I wish that much was true, for sport and trad aren't you allowed to reverse to the ground as many times as you like?

[Fiend]

Can a moderator please change the thread title "James Pearson's abseil-inspected but un-practised attempt of Lexicon" as there was quite clearly no flash attempts on the go, ta 

[abarro81]

. You wonder why Ondra didn't just ab Biographie himself?

Presumably because he's like those of us who think that's not cricket for a flash. I may be wrong, but I'd wager that most European sport climbers would also fall into that camp

[Bradders]

A flash is doing it first time you pull on and attempt it, that much is obvious.

I wish that much was true, for sport and trad aren't you allowed to reverse to the ground as many times as you like?

Ha, I was going to say; reading James' Insta post about it he says that on day 1 he climbed to the break and downclimbed, then went for the "flash" on day 2! The fact that he'd climbed on the route beforehand invalidates the flash far more significantly to me than any abseil inspection even if it's relatively easy climbing and he didn't actually fall off on day 1.

[Fiend]

When I used to trad climb regularly in Pembroke and Gogarth back in the day, I used to avert my eyes on the abseil where there was a chance of glimpsing any of the route I intended to climb on the way back out. If I got a glimpse of any part of the climb I couldn't 'unsee' I used to feel guilty about claiming the onsight but then saw that others weren't so bothered.

I did exactly this - 5 times on two occasions - abbing down Necromancer at Earnsheugh, always looking rigidly out to sea to not get the slightest glimpse of the route. Finally I led it - an amazing experience and intense challenge for me , and the last season (Autumn 2018) when I was climbing with regular trad confidence - and then afterwards abbed back down for another route and could finally look at what I'd just climbed in perfect detail, which was quite surreal.

From experience (that, and others, abbing down Judge Dread on Nth Cloud and seeing the RP and crimps to go for, for example) I've found that abseil inspecting makes an huge and often crucial difference in terms of gear and hold locations, sizes, feels, types, hidden or not, likely combinations of holds, where to place gear off, so much....

It's definitely not a flash, but it's equally definitely not pre-practised / headpointed. It's a grey area, but it's a grey area (just like JP's excellent "all the 2nd hand beta" flash attempt on Muy Caliente) that is a great and laudable attempt at ethical progression.

[36chambers]

A flash is doing it first time you pull on and attempt it, that much is obvious.

I wish that much was true, for sport and trad aren't you allowed to reverse to the ground as many times as you like?

Ha, I was going to say; reading James' Insta post about it he says that on day 1 he climbed to the break and downclimbed, then went for the "flash" on day 2! The fact that he'd climbed on the route beforehand invalidates the flash far more significantly to me than any abseil inspection even if it's relatively easy climbing and he didn't actually fall off on day 1.

then he goes on to say...

FYI - I call my first attempt a “flash” because I used the same ethic as when “flashing boulders - Touching holds is ok, imagining positions, ok but don’t do any moves.

don't do any moves, unless you're planning on reversing them. Just do whatever you think you can get away with basically

I think the new rule of flash should be you have to shout "flash!" just before you take off, regardless of how many times you're dogged the route previously, and that then is your one attempt to flash it. 

[petejh]

Just do whatever you think you can get away with basically

This is the fundamental unifying law of climbing.

[Aussiegav]

I think the new rule of flash should be you have to shout "flash!" just before you take off, regardless of how many times you're dogged the route previously, and that then is your one attempt to flash it.

Like nominating which pocket you’re going to pot the black.

[shark]

I think the new rule of flash should be you have to shout "flash!" just before you take off, regardless of how many times you're dogged the route previously, and that then is your one attempt to flash it.

Anyone know any deaf belayers? Asking for a friend

[Will Hunt]

Could I politely ask the boulderers to butt out of a conversation that they don't understand? Thanks 

[cheque]

Just do whatever you think you can get away with basically

This is the fundamental unifying law of climbing.

Let’s also not forget that unless you’re climbing at the very highest level almost no-one else cares. You can “get away with” or “take” absolutely anything because you’re only lying to yourself.

[mrjonathanr]

it is one nonetheless

Curiously definitive wording to use. If the whole thread shows anything it's that there's disagreement - between plenty of reasonable and experienced climbers - on whether it is one... Just because you write it doesn't make it so.

Fair enough. The key is whether you think an abseil inspection invalidates a flash. If you do, there’s no need to debate the finer details of James’s attempt. What do you think?

[andy moles]

Quite. The language is already there and commonly understood. If Pearson hadn’t mis-described his attempt we wouldn’t be having this discussion.

Hmm, that's not quite what I said! To judge by this thread, the boundaries of these things are actually not commonly understood.

As soon as you have rigid 'rules' about this sort of thing people are going to game them. Compare a quick look on abseil on a different day to a meticulously studied purpose-made video showing close-ups of all the holds and moves. Just so it can be called a flash.

I wonder if James Pearson really thinks it's a flash if you've abseiled and felt the holds, or if his Insta agent has gone rogue?

[Nike Air]

Does seem to be stretching the flash term and also the ground up ethics from what is said..

https://www.instagram.com/p/CeoXl2Il10u/?igshid=YmMyMTA2M2Y=

I've been doing it wrong all these years and it tweeks my interest in what other flashes i held up a touch up for that now I'm wondering what was involved..

[jwi]

Quite. The language is already there and commonly understood. If Pearson hadn’t mis-described his attempt we wouldn’t be having this discussion.

Hmm, that's not quite what I said! To judge by this thread, the boundaries of these things are actually not commonly understood.

As soon as you have rigid 'rules' about this sort of thing people are going to game them. Compare a quick look on abseil on a different day to a meticulously studied purpose-made video showing close-ups of all the holds and moves. Just so it can be called a flash.

I wonder if James Pearson really thinks it's a flash if you've abseiled and felt the holds, or if his Insta agent has gone rogue?

A flash can never encompass inspection from above. This cannot be difficult to comprehend as climbing starts at the bottom of the mountain.

Baffled.

[abarro81]

Does seem to be stretching the flash term and also the ground up ethics from what is said..

Whatever it is, it definitely isn't ground up!

What do you think?

I take it you've not read the thread 

[andy moles]

A flash can never encompass inspection from above. This cannot be difficult to comprehend as climbing starts at the bottom of the mountain.

To be clear, I agree that flash means no pre-inspection. I'm just saying that with enough shenanigans it's possible for a 'flash' to be further from an on-sight than a minimally pre-inspected ascent, which limits the shorthand utility of the term.

[abarro81]

But it's always possible to create scenarios like that... A redpoint where you had an onsight go on an unchalked route, slipped or broke a hold low down, lowered off and then went straight back up and did it, effectively onsighting 90% of the route, is probably 'closer' to an onsight than is a flash after watching 5 videos and having the full spray down with your mate ticking all the holds... But they still are what they are.