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Topic split - James Pearson’s “flash attempt” of Lexicon (Read 18506 times)

jwi

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Barrows, the thing about ground up is surely wrong. Surely you've done a route, moved the clips into the one next door as you lower off, had a look at the holds on the way down (but not pulled on) and then flashed it?

I can safely say that I have never done that and counted it as a flash. Even though I have been known to do all kinds of shady stuff.

Liamhutch89

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Call me naïve, but perhaps if he'd done it, then he might have provided the asterisk? Since he didn't do it, then 'not doing the flash go' is an easier throwaway statement to make without overthinking what qualifies as a flash.

abarro81

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Surely you've done a route, moved the clips into the one next door as you lower off, had a look at the holds on the way down (but not pulled on) and then flashed it? I certainly have.
Quite possibly, and I'm sure I would just log it as a flash with a note about what I did, but nowadays I wouldn't want to do that on something hard for me. And I have very dodgy ethics on this front - when two routes share a start/finish I have often done both versions "onsight" or "flash" and just noted the caveat in my comment (obviously if you fell off the shared bit you blew all variations)... but nowadays I don't really like to do that on hard things because, again, it feels a bit like "cheating" - so on something where I really cared about it I wouldn't want to lower down it putting clips in first. Perhaps that's partly because I know I wouldn't be able to resist rinsing it for all its worth if I did  :lol:
Presumably we agree that it would not be acceptable to stick clip up a sport route to chalk it up and put clips in before having a "flash" attempt? Fundamentally, what's the difference vs abbing down? I think that's where it seems too easy to reduce abb inspection to absurdity for it to make sense to me as being within the "rules of the game" for flashing routes.

Anyway, it's interesting to see that there's quite a split on abbing things where I'd assumed naively that my view would be the default view!

I read Mat’s comments on the other channel as a bit negative tbh.
Ah yeah, fair point, I guess I was thinking about this thread not the other one.. I agree with your reading of those other comments.


I find the comments about not necessarily gaining much info to not make much sense - fine that might be the case if you deliberately don't get much info, but it's not necessarily the case. If you get beta from your mate but it's shit or limited it's still a flash not an onsight... If you abb it then, to my mind, it's not really a flash, partly because you could have got loads of info - not available from just talking to people and watching videos - from the rope.  Flashing boulders is very different when they're low and you can fondle the holds first to find exactly how to hold them vs when you actually have to "properly" flash something!
« Last Edit: June 10, 2022, 12:42:21 pm by abarro81 »

abarro81

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Call me naïve, but perhaps if he'd done it, then he might have provided the asterisk? Since he didn't do it, then 'not doing the flash go' is an easier throwaway statement to make without overthinking what qualifies as a flash.
I could definitely believe this... but it's still interesting that we can't even agree on what counts as a flash!

El Mocho

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@ El Mocho as per Duncan’s post I guess I’ve done a few routes where I’ve abbed to check gear cos I don’t wanna die then gone from the ground having not really looked v closely at the holds. I’d call that a flash after pre-inspection. Sometimes not much easier than an ‘on-sight’ on a freshly chalked route.

Oh I agree with that (except I'd maybe not call it a flash after pre inspection, although maybe I would, I'd def not call it a flash and on my ukc log book I'd tick the worked or RP box or whatever it is) and I fully agree this style could feel closer to an on sight than even a conventional flash might, again the definitions/styles can be stretched in either direction. For 99% of my/your climbs it's also not really going to matter. I've seconded some E5 then 20 years later climbed it again no one is really going to care if I record it as a flash (which it obviously technically isn't, even though it would very likely feel like an o.s.) or if I record it as an RP (which it def wouldn't feel like). I'd also say (I don't know all the details of James attempt on Lexicon) but if he has just abbed it in trainers, brushed holds and checked out the gear but not seen anyone on the moves then it would very likely feel/be/would have been had he done it a better style/harder style than the style he did some of the Pembroke routes (assuming they were done in the limits of flash style I remember them as). This would have been the hardest flash or flash after pre inspection ascent done in the UK so it would be great to get the terminology correct.

I'd agree with Liam as well that if he had done it I think there would have been more details given, but failed attempts at/above the current limit often go down in folk law as much as successes (get ready for look at me bit...) I also failed to flash a route next to Lexicon back in '98. A few people still bring this up, sometimes (at least in my memory!) calling it 'the most impressive bit of climbing I've heard of'. Caff often refers to it as an on sight attempt - I actually had some beta a few weeks before from Gaz, it was only for the middle wall not the crux and actually hindered me more than helped as I remembered it mirror image as I was facing him when he showed the sequence but I always cringe slightly when he says I nearly did it on sight.

It may not make such a catchy headline but if we are honest about the different styles of ascent, and how they might sit in the spectrum of styles it could actually be really positive for trad climbing and better style. If James had done Lexicon in this style it would have been hugely significant and a jump in both the style this route had been done and the hardest route ever done with minor pre inspected. People like James and most folk I know value their life, have kids etc so to pre inspect Lexicon from abb is a totally sensible thing to do and the attempt alone should be lauded for what it was.

spidermonkey09

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I can safely say that I have never done that and counted it as a flash. Even though I have been known to do all kinds of shady stuff.

This amazes me, but fair dos. Flash to me clearly fits that type of ascent better than RP. Ultimately it doesn't matter at anything other than the cutting edge, but I would 100% call that a flash.

Barrows; I guarantee that if I ever manage to flash an 8a in that style it will be getting logged as such!  :lol:
I do agree stickclipping up it wouldn't be acceptable though. I think for me though, thats mopre because it feels wrong to touch the holds before a flash go. I see hanging the draws, looking at holds etc, from whatever angle, as fair game. It is also 100% a tactic I;bve used trad climbing to do an adjacent easier route to get a look at the holds on a harder route on the same wall, even during the actual climbing. Have I blown the flash on that as well? Ultimately it comes back to the age old pub discussion about onsighting; some would say if you even see a guidebook photo of it its gone (not me).

I could definitely believe this... but it's still interesting that we can't even agree on what counts as a flash!

This is the nub of it eg. i didn't realise fondling the holds on a boulder problem was ok if you wanted to flash it. I thought you weren't allowed to touch it at all!

abarro81

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This is the nub of it eg. i didn't realise fondling the holds on a boulder problem was ok if you wanted to flash it. I thought you weren't allowed to touch it at all!
Huh... I've always assumed you can fondle what you want as long as your feet don't leave the floor (so no ladder inspection or inspection from a rope) (I think maybe this came from the old world cup rules from a long time ago?). I don't actually have a clue what most top-end boulderers do in that regard...

AJM

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Do people have a fourth term in mind to help subdivide the continuum, or would people say that "after abseil inspection" would group into "redpoint" if the big three is the highest level grouping and their view is this isn't a flash?

It's unlikely that there's ever a clear line, but if we're using OS, flash and RP as the three I'd have maybe gone for a wider flash bucket than some which starts somewhere where you have more beta than the guide gives you and ends when you've actually tried a move. That being said I'm entirely internally illogical since clipsticking up a route in trainers would feel a bit dodgy, lowering past a route with the clips already in I wouldn't think twice about, and on trad I suspect if I hung in front of a placement trying out which wire fitted I'd start to wonder whereas if someone told me it was an RP3 before I left the ground I wouldn't think twice about that being "flash compliant" beta.

abarro81

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I think for me though, thats mopre because it feels wrong to touch the holds before a flash go. I see hanging the draws, looking at holds etc, from whatever angle, as fair game.

I think maybe we're more aligned that we think - for me it's largely the ability to touch the holds (and the equivalent with the gear) that means I wouldn't consider abbing a route to be "okay" for a flash. I guess I'm assuming that if I abbed a route I would be fondling, ticking etc...

Potash

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I'd personally count this situation as being analogous to "big grades for bad beta".

Fundamentally:

Can you consider something to be a flash if you have just done a hurried effort at headpointing?
Can you consider something to be an onsight if you have just done a bad job at remembering beta?

Abseiling whilst fondling the holds, would in my opinion, just be an example of doing a really cursory attempt at headpointing. If its not, where do you draw the line between abseil inspection acceptable for a flash and working the route? Holding more than one hold at a time, bearing down on a hold, hanging on the rope but checking the distance between holds?

My understanding of the development of headpointing is that it helped codify and eliminate the many many shades of grey contained within abseil inspection and that hanging about on a rope whilst touching the holds was defiantly working the route.

Will Hunt

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I wouldn't put too much store in these big groupings for style of ascent in trad except where the style is really clear cut. There's so much room for frigging in some way that the asterisk and caveats approach is always going to be needed.

duncan

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Flippin’ impressive setting off up a vertical 8b+ knowing how far you’re going to fall if you fluff it, however much beta you’ve got.

My initial instinct was ‘that’s not what I call a flash’. On reflection however, when multiple videos of a route are available without  discounting the flash, does an abseil inspection really make much difference? The strategic could even commission their own private beta videos. Perhaps we just need a bigger bin as AJM suggests.

Or perhaps we should be adding a new term to climbing’s Lexicon: the P-flash. Standing for pre-inspected flash, Pearson-flash, or a nod to Bootsy Collins?… you choose!

Bonjoy

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Do people have a fourth term in mind to help subdivide the continuum, or would people say that "after abseil inspection" would group into "redpoint" if the big three is the highest level grouping and their view is this isn't a flash?

It's unlikely that there's ever a clear line, but if we're using OS, flash and RP as the three I'd have maybe gone for a wider flash bucket than some which starts somewhere where you have more beta than the guide gives you and ends when you've actually tried a move. That being said I'm entirely internally illogical since clipsticking up a route in trainers would feel a bit dodgy, lowering past a route with the clips already in I wouldn't think twice about, and on trad I suspect if I hung in front of a placement trying out which wire fitted I'd start to wonder whereas if someone told me it was an RP3 before I left the ground I wouldn't think twice about that being "flash compliant" beta.
I think it's actually worth coining a term for this sooner rather than later. It maybe seems pedantic now, but technology means this particular patch of water is only going to get muddier. By this I mean people flying drones up routes, or digital guide technology increasing the information available pre-ascent without any need to go near the route. Better that it has a name than worthy bits of climbing get obscured by wrangling over categorisation.

grimer

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For me, the point is how I felt when i read the instagram post verses how I felt a bit differently when i heard about the pre inspection. The reality is still mega impressive but different from what i first thought.

But then maybe that is just down to my assumptions.

On a similar but different note, my friend was in Pembroke last year. I've not been for a few years but he described how, in the evening, the wads would come and shunt hard routes in the leap and Stennis etc. Then next day go and lead them.

These turned out to be ascents I had seen on Instagram, all with no asterisks. Again, my assumption was that the wads had flashed or ground upped them. Again, I was surprised, and again, perhaps my assumptions were to blame.

Dexter

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Do you lose the flash if someone else tries the route then makes a replica which you then use to train on prior to doing it?

Potash

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Has everybody who pulled onto the El Cap Freerider "boulder problem" pitch replica which went on tour of bouldering gyms blown their flash of Freerider?

shark

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Flippin’ impressive setting off up a vertical 8b+ knowing how far you’re going to fall if you fluff it, however much beta you’ve got.

Is it only Gresh that has commented on the sport grade so far? Don’t recall the others confirming that or otherwise though Mat Wright did comment that where Pearson got to warranted 8a+

Liamhutch89

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Do people have a fourth term in mind to help subdivide the continuum, or would people say that "after abseil inspection" would group into "redpoint" if the big three is the highest level grouping and their view is this isn't a flash?

It's unlikely that there's ever a clear line, but if we're using OS, flash and RP as the three I'd have maybe gone for a wider flash bucket than some which starts somewhere where you have more beta than the guide gives you and ends when you've actually tried a move. That being said I'm entirely internally illogical since clipsticking up a route in trainers would feel a bit dodgy, lowering past a route with the clips already in I wouldn't think twice about, and on trad I suspect if I hung in front of a placement trying out which wire fitted I'd start to wonder whereas if someone told me it was an RP3 before I left the ground I wouldn't think twice about that being "flash compliant" beta.
I think it's actually worth coining a term for this sooner rather than later. It maybe seems pedantic now, but technology means this particular patch of water is only going to get muddier. By this I mean people flying drones up routes, or digital guide technology increasing the information available pre-ascent without any need to go near the route. Better that it has a name than worthy bits of climbing get obscured by wrangling over categorisation.

This is a good point, although rather than trying to come up with ever more categories, why not do away with the flash altogether? An ascent is then either onsight, or it's not. If you did it first go after watching drone footage and training on a replica, then by all means spray about it being first go on instagram, but without the title of 'flash', it will always demand a paragraph on how it went down.

edshakey

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The strategic could even commission their own private beta videos. Perhaps we just need a bigger bin as AJM suggests.

Given how much Ondra got away with for his 9a+ flash (which isn't debated for ethics), the limit on allowed information is pretty high! However he did also make the choice not to ab down it. Trad and sport are different but there are certainly rules that crossover.

A related question to @ El Mocho - what did JP do in Pembroke that is pushing the limits of flashing? To my knowledge he had Caro show the sequence and gear in great detail, but that seems easily within the black and white of a flash, no grey area at all - he just did it very thoroughly. Would be interested if this is what you refer to, or if there are more dubious tactics at play?

Do you lose the flash if someone else tries the route then makes a replica which you then use to train on prior to doing it?
Has everybody who pulled onto the El Cap Freerider "boulder problem" pitch replica which went on tour of bouldering gyms blown their flash of Freerider?

Exactly the point I was about to make. Aidan came back from Finland with a 3D scan of the holds of Burden of Dreams - he now can build (has built?) a borderline perfect replica of it to work on. If someone was to work that until they had it dialled and then headed abroad and did it first go, I would be very uncomfortable about calling it a flash, despite the fact that it ticks all the usual boxes. Maybe a "flash with replica" is something we can expect to see in the next few years.

remus

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Do you lose the flash if someone else tries the route then makes a replica which you then use to train on prior to doing it?

Even better, attach your phone to a drone and use a 3d scanning app to make replicas of the holds to put on your replica problem (a la Aidan with the Burden of Dreams holds). Get that sweet flash while having spent months working that mm perfect replica.

ed: beaten to it!

abarro81

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Maybe a "flash with replica" is something we can expect to see in the next few years.
To a small extent this already exists - didn't JP flash one of the hard Swizz problems after training on (more approximate) replicas? Given that flash and onsight seem fairly unfashionable nowadays my guess is that this won't become a major issue. Especially given that it's hard enough to find people to give you good beta, let alone to build you 3D printed replicas!


rather than trying to come up with ever more categories, why not do away with the flash altogether?
That sounds very much like throwing the baby out with the bathwater

Aussiegav

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Another UKB rabbit hole. Par for the course it seems after any notable ascent or non ascent as in this case.

I think the lob is very impressive. Contender for the best lob in the UK??

I have noticed that these discussions mainly arise when it’s domestic climbing or climber. Just an observation. Not meant in any negative way.
« Last Edit: June 10, 2022, 02:32:07 pm by Aussiegav »

36chambers

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Do you lose the flash if someone else tries the route then makes a replica which you then use to train on prior to doing it?

Only if I'm allowed to tick the route if I link the full replica in a one-er...

jwi

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Since this was after ab inspection, presumably Pearson decided that the gear was bomber and that the fall was OK? Almost no one can set up an 8b+ even after ab-inspection and be 100% sure they will not fall. Ondra, Ramon, Megos, and Bečan perhaps, but hardly Pearson?

ummagumma

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Quote from: Dexter link=topic=31928.msg660982# :???:msg660982 date=1654865214
Do you lose the flash if someone else tries the route then makes a replica which you then use to train on prior to doing it?

Even better, attach your phone to a drone and use a 3d scanning app to make replicas of the holds to put on your replica problem (a la Aidan with the Burden of Dreams holds). Get that sweet flash while having spent months working that mm perfect replica.

ed: beaten to it!

Ah semantics! Or taking it further.. climb the mm perfect replica and take the tick for the problem :fishing:

 

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