[Adam Lincoln]

Not a significant repeat but….

Pretty audacious flash attempt on Lexicon by Pearson. Didn't look far away to be fair.

[grimer]

flippin eck

[Adam Lincoln]

flippin eck

https://www.instagram.com/reel/Cel8pZzoqt3/?igshid=YmMyMTA2M2Y=

[Ged]

Yikes. Got to admire that effort.

[unclesomebody]

He wasn't far away and there is little doubt in my mind he would have flashed it had he used the different sequence. But that's the game...

[shark]

Obviously he didn’t get the flash so it’s a bit academic but ‘flash attempt’ would be better replaced with the old guidebook favourite “after abseil inspection” if the grapevine is correct.

[shark]

Mat Wright has confirmed this on ukc I see:

James attempted a flash go after abseil inspection (brushing and feeling the holds on his way down). I’m not entirely sure if this is fitting with ethics but nevertheless, his attempt was very impressive.

[shark]

He wasn't far away and there is little doubt in my mind he would have flashed it had he used the different sequence. But that's the game...

Also according to Mathew Wright:

James fell off 2 moves below where Steve fell from and you can see the way that he slammed into that lower wall only a few metres above the deck. He hadn’t even entered the crux.

[36chambers]

Sounds like another case of 36C's law

"Any grey area in climbing will always get abused" (36chambers' Law)

With bouldering, hold inspection on a flash is par for the course, is this different in trad then?

[abarro81]

the reason why standards are not increasing in trad is in my opinion, mostly due to the public response to hard grades being publicised.

If this is true it's a damning indictment of the fragile egos and motivations of trad climbers  (For the avoidance of doubt, it strikes me as far more likely to be bollocks than to be true)

(RE the other point, I've always thought ab inspection was pretty dodgy for a flash - to the point of not really being a flash... but not really being a headpoint. Kinda the same as onsighting/flashing multiple lines that share a significant section - sits in a grey area so whatever you call it, it will need an asterisk next to it)

[shark]

(RE the other point, I've always thought ab inspection was pretty dodgy for a flash - to the point of not really being a flash... but not really being a headpoint. Kinda the same as onsighting/flashing multiple lines that share a significant section - sits in a grey area so whatever you call it, it will need an asterisk next to it)

Yes. Saying “flash attempt” without any qualifier is very misleading.

If abseil inspection is acceptable to claim a ‘flash’ in Pearson’s mind it would be worth checking for the record books (Remus?) whether he abbed down ‘Something’s Burning’ first in addition to the extensive beta he got off Ciavaldini.

[Adam Lincoln]

(RE the other point, I've always thought ab inspection was pretty dodgy for a flash - to the point of not really being a flash... but not really being a headpoint. Kinda the same as onsighting/flashing multiple lines that share a significant section - sits in a grey area so whatever you call it, it will need an asterisk next to it)

Yes. Saying “flash attempt” without any qualifier is very misleading.

Didn't realise he had abbed it when I posted above. I was just going off insta post.

[NaoB]

Yeah, 'flash' has a big range. Can vary from someone telling you that a hold is good, all the way through to abbing, brushing and feeling (but not pulling on, even in trainers!). I think all flash ascents need a qualifying sentence afterwards.

[abarro81]

Yeah, 'flash' has a big range. Can vary from someone telling you that a hold is good, all the way through to abbing, brushing and feeling (but not pulling on, even in trainers!).

I agree about the big range of flash, but that's also true for redpoint (everything from 2nd go to 10 year siege) and onsight (no chalk and dirty through to well chalked, well ticked, clips in on a sport route etc)... But the more I think about it, the more I don't think abbing things really - to me - counts as a flash. It feels a bit too close to stick clipping up a sport route, chalking it, feeling the holds etc... then "flashing" it. Even with my dodgy ethics I wouldn't even for a second think of that example as a flash, but if you can abb a route then why couldn't you do that? On a vert route it's the same thing... And a flash that's not ground up? I think for me it all breaks down a bit if abbing is "allowed" on a flash, though obviously others may have a different view...

[remus]

Yeah, 'flash' has a big range. Can vary from someone telling you that a hold is good, all the way through to abbing, brushing and feeling (but not pulling on, even in trainers!). I think all flash ascents need a qualifying sentence afterwards.

Word.

Shark, Im only aware of James getting beta from Caro on the pembroke stuff, no idea whether he abbed anything.

Personally I think abseiling stuff first is stretching the definition of a flash. Even if you're only cleaning and feeling holds you get so much information it feels closer to the 'quick headpoint' end of the spectrum. Having said that I've got a lot of sympathy for the practicality of getting stuff done, especially on mountain crags and routes that don't get a lot of traffic, and I think quick ascents with minimal inspection on stuff like this are super impressive.

[T_B]

Sometimes seeing someone on the moves whilst belaying them is more useful than abbing the route and looking at the holds. So it’s not so cut and dried.

Presumably James abbed it to look at the gear as much as anything? I mean, he’s got kids right. He’s not stupid is he. He obviously thought a reasonable, not unjustifiable style would be to ab it and try a flash. Amazing effort.

Challenge is personal and a flash at the right personal level can be just as satisfying as an on sight in my experience as a redpoint might be.

So to be negative about James’ attempt - wherever the greyness lies with flashing - smacks of a lack of understanding of how audacious yet smart an effort it was.

But yeah, any flash attempt needs a footnote.

[abarro81]

Challenge is personal and a flash at the right personal level can be just as satisfying as an on sight in my experience as a redpoint might be.

Headpointing skills are very close to those required for redpointing. In my view it’s a much ‘easier’ discipline to ‘learn’ than on sighting or flashing.

I definitely agree with the above

So to be negative about James’ attempt - wherever the greyness lies with flashing - smacks of a lack of understanding of how audacious yet smart an effort it was.

No-one's being negative about the attempt. IMO it's perfectly valid to try to define what "counts" as a flash, and someone trying something hard in this style is likely to bring up that discussion - it's not a slight on how fierce an effort it was, it's just natural that it brings it up as a topic. Whether it's a flash or a "pseudo flash" or "after abseil inspection", it's a very impressive effort. But that's kind of by the by with respect to defining climbing styles.

Having said that I've got a lot of sympathy for the practicality of getting stuff done,

That's half the challenge of flashing though isn't it - getting good beta from someone. Even at many sport crags, let alone on something like this! Doing it after ab inspection might be the most "natural" way to try to climb something like this "first try" - where beta and chalked holds are not easily available... but I'm still not sure that for me it makes sense to call it a "flash" attempt

[El Mocho]

Posted this in the other thread just as it split...

Having done the occasional hard flash over the last 30 years of trad climbing, and having hung out with a bunch of folk who do a lot of hard flashes I've never thought abbing a route would be allowed for this style. Abbing a route is pre inspection, therefore no longer a flash. I'd agree with Tom's post that watching someone on the moves, and giving you all the beta (a la some of James' stuff in Pembroke) would likely give you more useful info than just a quick ab in trainers but that's the same with many styles of climbing eg a quick first go redpoint could well be harder/better than a ground up ascent over 8 days (eg thinking of my multi fall, multi day failed ground up on Parthian) - there is overlap between what might be considered better style and what might actually be better style when the two named styles are at either end of the allowed spectrum.

Still a hugely impressive effort from James, just starting that run out with conviction to go for it would be pretty full on. Fall looked casual 

[jwi]

Everyone surely thinks this is an amazing effort? And everyone who actually climbs or have actually climbed at some point approves of an attempt with as good ethics as is possible. But surely no one thinks that abseil inspections are ok for a flash?

That's half the challenge of flashing though isn't it - getting good beta from someone. Even at many sport crags, let alone on something like this!

Getting good beta is so rare that I find that it is often easier to onsight a well-chalked route than to go by someone else's methods.

[Duncan campbell]

Whilst I agree abseil inspections probably are pushing the envelope for flashing, from personal experience I can confirm that if you don’t pull on any moves it gives an experience pretty close to that of a flash.

I’ve abbed a few routes over the past few years that I have wanted to either check were clean (fairhead) or check there were other gear options due to demise of a peg (sharp nose)

The most recent fairhead experience I checked out the gear and then proceeded to barely remember anything (the placements were fiddly and weird small wires) and with it being a bridging corner couldn’t try any moves in my trainers even if I’d wanted to. I knew on occasion that a good hold or obvious bit of gear was coming up but nothing beyond that.

I think if you are strict with yourself, abseiling a route can give a really rich experience on a route that is a little outside of the days onsight reach.

But it’s obviously a grey area.

Flipping unbelievable effort from JP. He’s had some stick in the past but you can’t take anything away from his efforts 99% of the time!

[El Mocho]

Yes just in case anyone takes my dig about it not being a flash the wrong way it was a hugely impressive attempt in a great style. Same with James' Pembroke stuff (which is right at the limit of what I would allow as a flash) I thought they were hugely impressive ascents, maybe some of the most impressive bits of climbing to have happened in the UK.

[spidermonkey09]

Barrows, the thing about ground up is surely wrong. Surely you've done a route, moved the clips into the one next door as you lower off, had a look at the holds on the way down (but not pulled on) and then flashed it? I certainly have. To say that all flashes have to be ground up is very limiting. Taking that logic to its extreme, someone who does Cenotaph Corner and looks across at Right Wall as they ab off cant flash that either.

Agree with Naomi; flash is a wideranging field and almost always needs some explaining.

Edit; I agree with dunc too, if I were to ab a trad route to give it a brush and check gear, but not pull on, I would happily call that a flash.

[T_B]

So to be negative about James’ attempt - wherever the greyness lies with flashing - smacks of a lack of understanding of how audacious yet smart an effort it was.

No-one's being negative about the attempt.
[/quote]

I read Mat’s comments on the other channel as a bit negative tbh.

@ El Mocho as per Duncan’s post I guess I’ve done a few routes where I’ve abbed to check gear cos I don’t wanna die then gone from the ground having not really looked v closely at the holds. I’d call that a flash after pre-inspection. Sometimes not much easier than an ‘on-sight’ on a freshly chalked route.

[spidermonkey09]

I read Mat’s comments on the other channel as a bit negative tbh.

Also agree with this. Gave off 'methinks he doth protest too much' vibes.

[Teaboy]

The issue isn’t with the style of any one ascent, the issue is with trying to use three terms (flash, OS, RP) to describe all points on a continuum. I think we are all in agreement we just need a few words in the Insta post to describe what’s been done (for any ascent not this one in particular)