UKBouldering.com

Topic split: Kneebars / Kneepads / Knee training (Read 5867 times)

Paul B

Offline
  • *****
  • forum hero
  • Posts: 9626
  • Karma: +264/-4
Don't think I've ever heard anyone grumble about kneeBARS on existing routes. KneePADS certainly. One is a technique, and complaining about it ridiculous

I don't entirely agree with this; at crags which were historically used as places to train, seeking out eliminates to enhance difficulty I don't see the difference (personally). This came apparent when everyone started to find certain problems at the Tor (no, not Ben's Roof) easier but in reality had ignored the 'rules'. Yes, it's fine to not do so (and we can argue plenty about the merits of training by eliminating technique etc.), but it isn't the same thing.

but like stopwatches are now common, I suspect that in another 10 years people retiring pads to "training pads" after a season will be common and calf raises will be standard.

Definitely. I've been trying to find a suitable volume that'll fit on my board that will allow me to get a hands off rest without taking up an unreasonable amount of room. Training on Ste's bit of wood (ooh err) did work wonders for me.

abarro81

Offline
  • *****
  • forum hero
  • Posts: 4286
  • Karma: +341/-25
we can argue plenty about the merits of training by eliminating technique etc
My standard answer when someone asks me why I would use a knee indoors, or use an easier sequence than the intended one indoors, or use a knee on boulder links that are mostly for training is "I'm not training to be shit at rock climbing"...
« Last Edit: May 18, 2022, 02:13:52 pm by abarro81 »

petejh

Offline
  • *****
  • forum hero
  • Posts: 5776
  • Karma: +621/-36
we can argue plenty about the merits of training by eliminating technique etc
My standard answer when someone asks me why I would use a knee indoors, or use an easier sequence than the intended one indoors, or use a knee on boulder links that are mostly for training is "I'm not training to be shit at sport climbing or cave-style bouldering as practiced since the 2010s. "...
Added context for you. Rock climbing's a broad church that encompasses E5 5c at Gogarth, the Walker Spur *and* 9b at Malham. You're training to be good at one bit of 'rock-climbing' but not the others (which you might or might not remain relatively shit at, independent of being good at the other).

And 'rock climbing' pre-kneepads wasn't the same as rock climbing is post-kneepads. Inevitable transition period still ongoing. Still waiting for little hard plastic heel spikes on rock shoes as the next boat-rocking evolution. Dunno how much they'll help on the Walker Spur.
« Last Edit: May 18, 2022, 03:08:21 pm by petejh »

abarro81

Offline
  • *****
  • forum hero
  • Posts: 4286
  • Karma: +341/-25
I think you may have misread or misunderstood my post...  the middle of the 3 examples didn't even have anything to do with knees (padded or otherwise). And the other two didn't even mention pads, just knees, which AFAIK were invented prior to 2010. Either that or I just imagined going to Europe and everyone kneebaring the tufas before that? And everyone kneebaring at the cornice for that matter. Even if you were a pad hater there'd still be good reason to practice kneebar technique.

Still waiting for little hard plastic heel spikes on rock shoes as the next boat-rocking evolution
I take it you've never tried an anasazi on a spike before. But god it gets  :yawn: pointing that out to you again  :lol:

P.S. I'll remember to do more indoor eliminates and no-knee link ups at Griff's to train for adventure choss and winterneering  :lol: I have genuinely no clue how the point you're trying to make there relates to whether "training" by technique eliminates is a good idea or just crap training if what you want to get better at is the vast majority of rock climbing (i.e. not pinches wall eliminates)! It's a long time since I climbed a Gogarth E5, but IIRC the ability to climb sequences efficiently was more useful on trad than the ability to campus.
« Last Edit: May 18, 2022, 03:30:50 pm by abarro81 »

cheque

Offline
  • *****
  • forum hero
  • Posts: 3389
  • Karma: +522/-2
    • Cheque Pictures
Everybody get your bingo cards ready for the imminent thread split…

Duma

Offline
  • *****
  • forum hero
  • Posts: 5751
  • Karma: +226/-4
Hah! Bagsy bottom left

SA Chris

Offline
  • *****
  • forum hero
  • Posts: 29221
  • Karma: +630/-11
    • http://groups.msn.com/ChrisClix
Still waiting for little hard plastic heel spikes on rock shoes as the next boat-rocking evolution. Dunno how much they'll help on the Walker Spur.

Heel spurs on the Walker Spur?

petejh

Offline
  • *****
  • forum hero
  • Posts: 5776
  • Karma: +621/-36
I think you may have misread or misunderstood my post...  the middle of the 3 examples didn't even have anything to do with knees (padded or otherwise). And the other two didn't even mention pads, just knees, which AFAIK were invented prior to 2010. Either that or I just imagined going to Europe and everyone kneebaring the tufas before that? And everyone kneebaring at the cornice for that matter. Even if you were a pad hater there'd still be good reason to practice kneebar technique.

Still waiting for little hard plastic heel spikes on rock shoes as the next boat-rocking evolution
I take it you've never tried an anasazi on a spike before. But god it gets  :yawn: pointing that out to you again  :lol:

P.S. I'll remember to do more indoor eliminates and no-knee link ups at Griff's to train for adventure choss and winterneering  :lol: I have genuinely no clue how the point you're trying to make there relates to whether "training" by technique eliminates is a good idea or just crap training if what you want to get better at is the vast majority of rock climbing (i.e. not pinches wall eliminates)! It's a long time since I climbed a Gogarth E5, but IIRC the ability to climb sequences efficiently was more useful on trad than the ability to campus.

Was merely a light-hearted attempt to point out that when you said you train knees so as not to be shit at 'rock climbing' your definition was one very specific type of rock climbing. Seems it wasn't taken in the spirit it was sent. Never mind.  ::)

Paul B

Offline
  • *****
  • forum hero
  • Posts: 9626
  • Karma: +264/-4
My standard answer when someone asks me why I would use a knee indoors, or use an easier sequence than the intended one indoors, or use a knee on boulder links that are mostly for training is "I'm not training to be shit at rock climbing"...

Totally, and I'm from the same church these days (having retrained myself from being Barry Basic), but let's be clear, if you don't apply the 'rules' of an eliminate (and these exist), it is generally easier. That's not a comment on the recent ascent BTW before I inadvertently upset someone.

abarro81

Offline
  • *****
  • forum hero
  • Posts: 4286
  • Karma: +341/-25
Was merely a light-hearted attempt to point out that when you said you train knees so as not to be shit at 'rock climbing' your definition was one very specific type of rock climbing. Seems it wasn't taken in the spirit it was sent. Never mind.  ::)
Ah right, sorry, I think the confusion was because I wasn't trying to say that I train knees so as not be bad at climbing, but that I don't artificially avoid knees (or using the easiest sequence, or matching, or any other technique) so as not to be bad at climbing. If I read my post the way you read it then I understand your response (whereas reading your post in the context of how I'd meant mine implied that front-on-basic was good training for the Greater Ranges)!

Aussiegav

Offline
  • ****
  • forum abuser
  • Posts: 677
  • Karma: +29/-10
    • Climberbiker.
I’m waiting to subscribe for the Need+ app with a range of knee bar sessions catering for different energy systems.  :popcorn:

With Barros & Ondra doing weekly podcasts for their Patreon members.

To be taken in the good fun it was intended.

Hoseyb

Offline
  • ****
  • forum abuser
  • Master of Obscurites
  • Posts: 545
  • Karma: +44/-0
    • www.hoseyb.org.uk
Kneebars have been trained for years in the offwidth community. It's just we're a bunch of misfits who tend to pursue our sordid practices in private...

Liamhutch89

Offline
  • *****
  • forum hero
  • Posts: 1258
  • Karma: +87/-1
I have two knee questions.

I seem to keep taking the top layer of skin off my thighs when repeatedly trying kneebars I have to push really hard on. This then scabs and takes a week or 2 to heal. Is this normal or is there a way to mitigate it? I'm wearing the Send pad

I've had a session on a boulder with quite a hard knee (for me at least) and will probably find better positions naturally, but is there anything that can be done to train this specific type of knee where you are pressing inwards with the thigh rather than up and into something? On the vid below, just working the moves, I fall out of the knee quite abruptly as it needs a lot of sidewards pressure. I'm sure this is mostly technique but has anyone trained it?



I suspect ABarro will be best placed to answer, although I know there's at least 2 others on this board that have done this specific problem! Cheers.

remus

Offline
  • *****
  • forum hero
  • Posts: 2857
  • Karma: +146/-1
I seem to keep taking the top layer of skin off my thighs when repeatedly trying kneebars I have to push really hard on. This then scabs and takes a week or 2 to heal. Is this normal or is there a way to mitigate it? I'm wearing the Send pad

That's interesting, the only issues I tend to get are bruising from pointy knees rather than skin damage. Just speculating, but I guess it'll probably be about minimising pad movement when you're in the knee, so perhaps some tape around the top of the pad and spray glue would help.

Quote
I've had a session on a boulder with quite a hard knee (for me at least) and will probably find better positions naturally, but is there anything that can be done to train this specific type of knee where you are pressing inwards with the thigh rather than up and into something? On the vid below, just working the moves, I fall out of the knee quite abruptly as it needs a lot of sidewards pressure. I'm sure this is mostly technique but has anyone trained it?

Calf power and hip mobility are the key for me. Calf for being able to really press in to it and then hip so you don't pull yourself out. I've never really struggled with calf power so haven't trained it, but I do do some hip flexibility work and anecdotally it does seem to have helped my knee bars by allowing my hips to get in to better position for milking them.

abarro81

Offline
  • *****
  • forum hero
  • Posts: 4286
  • Karma: +341/-25
I get skin damage on hard knees sometimes, but very rarely to the point of actually getting scabs, just raw and sore. like Remus says I think minimising pad movement helps a lot, but on some hard knees its probably not avoidable and you might have to limit number of goes. A stiffer pad (sportiva or blak pad) is also likely to help on the most sore ones.

As far as training that kind of knee goes, I've never tried... I must confess my knee training is 'a bit 90s' in that mostly involves doing knees (indoors and out), plus a bit of calf weights or calf pump using BFR cuffs. I'd imagine that training your hip adductors would help here, should be plenty of exercises out there if you google. Sorry not to be more help!

Hoseyb

Offline
  • ****
  • forum abuser
  • Master of Obscurites
  • Posts: 545
  • Karma: +44/-0
    • www.hoseyb.org.uk
Like Barrow's says, adductor work.
A football between the knees is a good place to start, that and knee hooking doorways in a one legged squat position. Waving the other leg around helps make it harder

Liamhutch89

Offline
  • *****
  • forum hero
  • Posts: 1258
  • Karma: +87/-1
I suspect calf strength and hip mobility / strength are not the issue as I already do a lot of this stuff.

I'll incoporate the doorway knee hooks! In fact i'll try and get even more speicifc by setting some hard kneebars on my board. I'll also give the Sportiva pad a try as I already have one - generally much prefer the Send but who knows for this particular knee.


abarro81

Offline
  • *****
  • forum hero
  • Posts: 4286
  • Karma: +341/-25
I find the send much more comfy and it's my default go-to, but there are some knees where the sportiva works better (like shoes I guess - I have my default pair but then the odd other option for particular heel hooks or toe hooks)

Steve Crowe

Offline
  • **
  • menacing presence
  • Posts: 198
  • Karma: +17/-1
  • Using knees since 1974
    • www.climbonline.co.uk
“ I fall out of the knee quite abruptly as it needs a lot of sidewards pressure. ”

You seem to fall out of the knee bar as you reach with your right hand. Maybe you are ever so slightly opening your hip at that moment. Maybe try driving your right hip towards the knee bar and try not to look for the handhold just feel for it while looking the other way.


Liamhutch89

Offline
  • *****
  • forum hero
  • Posts: 1258
  • Karma: +87/-1
“ I fall out of the knee quite abruptly as it needs a lot of sidewards pressure. ”

You seem to fall out of the knee bar as you reach with your right hand. Maybe you are ever so slightly opening your hip at that moment. Maybe try driving your right hip towards the knee bar and try not to look for the handhold just feel for it while looking the other way.

Yes, good spot. Fortunately there isn't an actual hold to look for so precision is non essential :lol:

jwi

Offline
  • *****
  • forum hero
  • Posts: 4219
  • Karma: +331/-1
    • On Steep Ground
The other day I went back to the crag where I learned to sport climb in the early 00s, a small but brilliant granite crag a stone's throw south of the polar circle. I had a kneepad with me because it is 2022 and not 1994. I couldn't be bothered to put it on since it was warm and I didn't care if I topped out any of the routes or not.

When I first started to climb there around the turn of the century, I made my first kneepad following some instructions in Climbing Magazine, since it was pretty obvious that it would help. As time progressed, I bought and used the first kneepads commercially available in Sweden (5.10). When I moved away for good some ten years ago, I knew most of the routes at the crag well.

Now, when revisiting the place, I discovered that I could take both hands off using knee bars in a lot more places than I could 15 years ago. In some spots that I previously could only get some marginal knee bars, requiring at least one hand on, and only if wearing a rubber knee pad, I could now take completely bomber no hands rest wearing slippery stretch jeans and no pad.

Just like tape glows allow for faster learning of handjamming by making jams a lot less painful, it seems like my constant kneebaring on Mediterranean limestone wearing protection against the rough rock actually do improve the technique. Who could have known?

I am not sure I have a point other than it helps a lot to move to somewhere with lots of kneebars, buy kneepads, and try to put them in everywhere.

You might get weak.

petejh

Offline
  • *****
  • forum hero
  • Posts: 5776
  • Karma: +621/-36
The other day I went back to the crag where I learned to sport climb in the early 00s, a small but brilliant granite crag a stone's throw south of the polar circle.

Completely off-topic but have you climbed in the Kvalya region north of Tromso? I was recently looking through the guidebook, considering a trip. If I go I'll be trad climbing (or possibly winter climbing) and won't be kneebarring..

jwi

Offline
  • *****
  • forum hero
  • Posts: 4219
  • Karma: +331/-1
    • On Steep Ground
The other day I went back to the crag where I learned to sport climb in the early 00s, a small but brilliant granite crag a stone's throw south of the polar circle.

Completely off-topic but have you climbed in the Kvalya region north of Tromso? I was recently looking through the guidebook, considering a trip. If I go I'll be trad climbing (or possibly winter climbing) and won't be kneebarring..

I have.

Baugen on Hollenderan might have the best granite in Europe. No joke.

The routes on the left side are incredibly sustained. Thanatos, Gemini, Halvmånerisset, Svart Hav.... they are all brilliant.

 

SimplePortal 2.3.7 © 2008-2024, SimplePortal