[submaximal gains]

Eder trains for knee bars as seriously as one would expect.

Copied from 8a.nu so you don't have to go there:

"In the Eder Lomba video of Rainman 9b, we can see that he stays in a kneebar from 3:50 - 7:10, and short parts of it, "no hands rest". Steve McClure did the FA and he has said about that rest, "Kinda rubbishy kneebar, very intense, you are not staying there very long." Noteworthy is that they are both 170 cm tall. It should also be mentioned that when Adam Ondra tried the route in 2017 he could also get a no hands rest but still thought it was 9b.

Steve comments: Knee pad technology has improved somewhat! With the pads I now use I’d have been able to rest better! At the time the pad I found most useful was a simple knee support bandage. I also sometimes used an original 5.10 pad but it kept slipping down. So the route was really a sprint from the top of Raindogs all the way up. But this is the progression of things. New tools come along that we use to give us the edge…. Shoes, sticky rubber, chalk, cams. And these tools make the climbing feel better. Which is good!

The kneebar with good pads will make it a little bit easier, but by how much I can’t say. If others propose a downgrade, fair enough. But pretty sure for me, and the way I climbed it, it was 9b. What more can I say? Do we have to get so obsessed by the grade? If we must… I thought 9b. Ondra thought so. Eder needed ‘9b’ leg power to do it that no one else has maybe? He has used new strengths applied to the route in an awesome way. Luckily I did it yonks ago, had such a good journey. And will be happy forever.

Eder comments: When I first tried the kneebar I couldn’t get no hands, took me 3-4 sessions to get 5 seconds no hands, and months training my legs so I could stay longer, last November managed for the first time 1 min on the kneebar and after a winter of training I got 3 min for the first time last month. The kneebar is hard very painful and super intense, what you see on the video is the outcome of loads of really hard work, loads of pain and loads off pinning off the kneebar buttering your knees… My mate Josh Ibertson is also trying the route with the same knee pads and he struggles to get 30 seconds no hands… he is been trying the route for as long as I have.

So the training, I did loads of strength training like weighted squad deadlifting. Also some pain tolerance training for my right toes, because the kneebar is so intense that my right toe will really hurt due to the pressure you inevitably apply on the heel. All that pressure transfers through the shoe getting really tight on the toes.

I also did loads of explosive jumping. Calf raises… but the specific for the route where kneebar behind de campus and body crunches every other day, and the pain tolerance by adding weight to my calf raises on really painful footholds. The toes were really painful due to the particularity of the foothold.

On this particular kneebar, (see the picture), I use my left leg to still push my right foot into place to keep a more stable pose. I found that the more comfortable way to stay on the kneebar."

[abarro81]

Honestly, that's some disingenuous bollocks from Steve. The Send pads widely available in 2017 are not hugely different from the current iteration and IMO not hugely different from the Blak Pad  (though Eder's looks like it may be a new version? Or at least a new colour vs what I have). It's like claiming that the difference is down to having to have used a pair of Dragons but now people can use an Unparallel instead. Pretty unedifying if you ask me

[danm]

I didn't read it that way at all tbh, seems pretty fucking obvious that Steve's saying he couldn't get a knee pad to work as well as Eder does in the video, but that it's also bloody obvious that Eder has trained like a maniac to maximise the benefit and that this is just as valid, in Steve's eyes, as training to maximise any other aspect that will get you to the top. Stop getting your kneepads in a twist!

[abarro81]

Really? The entire first paragraph is devoted to talking about how much better pads have got. Reads like sour grapes to me

[ferret]

I'm with Dan

"New tools come along that we use to give us the edge…. Shoes, sticky rubber, chalk, cams. And these tools make the climbing feel better. Which is good!"

"He has used new strengths applied to the route in an awesome way."

Doesn't sound like sour grapes to me at all, especially from a guy that goes so far out of his way to not say anything controversial that at times it borders on annoying.
Would agree that you could have probably tracked down a pad that wasn't too far away in effectiveness.

[shark]

That’s impressive extra next level training by Eder especially considering he was already a kneebar wizard

[spidermonkey09]

I also think it comes across fine from Steve, but I do also think he was insane to still be using a 5.10 pad when the send ones were about. Less common, sure but definitely available for the pros.

Amazing effort from Eder. The point he makes about Josh in the same knee bar is a good one. Whenever you watch Josh in it he's grimacing and generally busting a gut to stay in position for 30 seconds. Eders core and legs must be unbelievable; I quite like the expression 9b leg power!

[shark]

Really? The entire first paragraph is devoted to talking about how much better pads have got. Reads like sour grapes to me

Given that the title of the piece is “Lomba's 9b knee pad technique and leg strength story” that seems reasonable 

[Shy Ted]

Saw a video of a cuddly community Dr once called Harold Shipman, had a comforting fluffy beard and everything. Looked a lovely chap.

Brilliant

[abarro81]

Really? The entire first paragraph is devoted to talking about how much better pads have got. Reads like sour grapes to me

Given that the title of the piece is “Lomba's 9b knee pad technique and leg strength story” that seems reasonable 

The title will be from Jens

[Wellsy]

I feel like he's basically saying the kneebar is awful and required such specific training that it doesn't add to the grade

He hasn't proposed a downgrade after all

Maybe Steve is a little sensitive to the proposition of such after all it was a huge labour for him. I can understand that. I think its a truly mega effort from both of em.

[shark]

Really? The entire first paragraph is devoted to talking about how much better pads have got. Reads like sour grapes to me

Given that the title of the piece is “Lomba's 9b knee pad technique and leg strength story” that seems reasonable 

The title will be from Jens

Who will have asked for, or selected, quotes to fit the article. It’s going to mainly his story angle rather than Steve’s.

I’m sure Steve is miffed with himself for not working on the kneebar and pad selection more like Megos was miffed not getting the best sequence on Bibliographie.

[Nutty]

I'm with Barrows, to be claiming that the best kneepad available in 2017 was a knee support bandage and implying that it's the improvement in pads (and implying the difference is equivalent to the introduction of sticky rubber, chalk or cams) that makes the kneebar viable ("With the pads I use now...!") rather than Eder's skill and specific training is pretty poor, and ignores the fact that Ondra could use the kneebar in 2017 (morphology may make it easier for Ondra, but it shows it isn't purely down to improvement in pads).

People on here were sourcing Send pads in 2014. Maybe Steve felt he couldn't wear a non-5.10 pad due to sponsorship?

[remus]

Seems like it's just about how you read Steve's comments I didn't read it as him having a go at anyone or dismissing the kneebar tech. It's obviously not a straightforward knee and requires significant skill + training to make it work.

[Bradders]

Seems like it's just about how you read Steve's comments I didn't read it as him having a go at anyone or dismissing the kneebar tech. It's obviously not a straightforward knee and requires significant skill + training to make it work.

Yeah, likewise. And doesn't sound like it warrants a downgrade either based on Eder's explanation; it's just a different way of doing it. You either;

a) develop your anaerobic capacity in the forearms as per Steve; or,
b) develop your leg and toe strength to use the knee bar as per Eder.

One isn't necessarily easier than the other.

[abarro81]

I didn't read it as him having a go at anyone or dismissing the kneebar tech.

Perhaps we're getting crossed wires - I also didn't read it as either of those things, so not sure where they come from? I read it as putting too much emphasis on the changes in kneebar tech - this would be true for an FA in 2007 but not in 2017 IMO.
I do now wonder if the question posed by Jens means that the answer from Steve reads out-of-context; e.g. if the Q was "what do you think about knee pads" then the answer reads a lots better than if the Q was "what do you think about the kneebars on this route"

[Will Hunt]

Seems like it's just about how you read Steve's comments I didn't read it as him having a go at anyone or dismissing the kneebar tech. It's obviously not a straightforward knee and requires significant skill + training to make it work.

Yeah, likewise. And doesn't sound like it warrants a downgrade either based on Eder's explanation; it's just a different way of doing it. You either;

a) develop your anaerobic capacity in the forearms as per Steve; or,
b) develop your leg and toe strength to use the knee bar as per Eder.

One isn't necessarily easier than the other.

This is interesting isn't it? People have been doing the former for decades but I've never heard of anyone going to quite the lengths that Eder has to train knees. Perhaps they have, just never set it out publicly.
It's likely that kneebarring is still in its emergent stage. Perhaps Eder's kneebarring seems like "9b standard" to us primitives, but will be seen as more lowly in the future as people get better and better at hanging off their legs.

[Bradders]

Seems like it's just about how you read Steve's comments I didn't read it as him having a go at anyone or dismissing the kneebar tech. It's obviously not a straightforward knee and requires significant skill + training to make it work.

Yeah, likewise. And doesn't sound like it warrants a downgrade either based on Eder's explanation; it's just a different way of doing it. You either;

a) develop your anaerobic capacity in the forearms as per Steve; or,
b) develop your leg and toe strength to use the knee bar as per Eder.

One isn't necessarily easier than the other.

This is interesting isn't it? People have been doing the former for decades but I've never heard of anyone going to quite the lengths that Eder has to train knees. Perhaps they have, just never set it out publicly.
It's likely that kneebarring is still in its emergent stage. Perhaps Eder's kneebarring seems like "9b standard" to us primitives, but will be seen as more lowly in the future as people get better and better at hanging off their legs.

Ondra is the other notable example, for the kneebars on Silence. Sure he said something like initially he couldn't use them, and eventually got up to taking hands off for c. 4 mins!

[spidermonkey09]

Ondra is the other notable example, for the kneebars on Silence. Sure he said something like initially he couldn't use them, and eventually got up to taking hands off for c. 4 mins!

This is broadly what happens with rests though isn't it. More than once I've gone up something, felt some holds and thought 'jesus, no way can I shake out there,' a few sessions later and I can recover pretty well. Obviously its poles apart but the general principle stands. As a complete kneebar novice I had the same experience (repeatedly) in Rodellar; seemingly very marginal knees ended up being really good eventually.

[teestub]

This is interesting isn't it? People have been doing the former for decades but I've never heard of anyone going to quite the lengths that Eder has to train knees. Perhaps they have, just never set it out publicly.
It's likely that kneebarring is still in its emergent stage. Perhaps Eder's kneebarring seems like "9b standard" to us primitives, but will be seen as more lowly in the future as people get better and better at hanging off their legs.

I’m assuming Barrows has also spent a lot of time hanging upside down with his knees stuffed behind a campus board!

[Paul B]

It was Steve that added the plywood extension underneath the Foundry board (I believe) allowing people to kneebar and hang inverted either 'curling up' with weights or just doing touches/holds. Even I used it.

[Will Hunt]

Yep, and how many people have done a winter's specific pain tolerance training? Fewer people than now have a Lattice plan, would you agree? And what would Eder do after another 5 winter's training with a more professional approach informed by better developed sport science? How many research papers are published right now about the effects of various training regimes on kneebar performance?

My point is that kneebarring is almost certainly still in relative infancy, way behind on its developmental curve than other forms of training. There are some early adopters who are reaping the benefits while there are still lots of people grumbling about using kneebars on existing routes. Kind of like people training in the 80s whilst others moaned that it's cheating if you turn up to the crag without a hangover.

[Duma]

Don't think I've ever heard anyone grumble about kneeBARS on existing routes. KneePADS certainly. One is a technique, and complaining about it ridiculous, the other is a relatively recent bit of equipment, and eschewing it (or pointing out that it may change the difficulty of something) is a reasonable position, though an increasingly minority one.

[abarro81]

From a few messages with Steve, I think that where I read him as saying pad tech had improved a lot since 2017 (which I objected to), what he meant was more that for him pad tech has changed a lot over that period, in part because he was a bit behind the curve back then.  Which all makes sense.

I’m assuming Barrows has also spent a lot of time hanging upside down with his knees stuffed behind a campus board!

Oh yes, very much so. Done plenty of finding kneebars on the School splat board to train on too. But never to the point of training pain tolerance, and I've only ever tried training my calves - not the other bits of the leg. Got some new ideas to try now!

I think on the training for kneebaring front that Will is right but others are right too - people have been doing it for years (people in Colorado were doing calf raises before I'd ever seen a kneepad), but there's a lot further to go and now that it's less niche people will start to learn what does/doesn't work well. Some people still look at me funny when I'm training in a pair of old pads, like they used to 10 years ago when training with a stopwatch.. but like stopwatches are now common, I suspect that in another 10 years people retiring pads to "training pads" after a season will be common and calf raises will be standard.

[Will Hunt]

Don't think I've ever heard anyone grumble about kneeBARS on existing routes. KneePADS certainly.

With respect, Duma, where have you been?