[MischaHY]

Slight side note but in these situations abbing into a route with potential rope knackering/snagging forces underneath (whether this be wind, sea or thorny bushes) I've found it very helpful to stack the rope into a small haulbag and hang it from my belay loop. This allows for trouble free abbing without any rope-detangling or unwanted sea-dips. When you reach the stance you can simply clove hitch the end off and clip it into the belay with a short loop underneath to facilitate the next abseiler. This can also be done with one of those super compressable 30l nylon bags which pack down to the size of a pair of socks and weigh similar which means it's a good backup for on alpine stuff where you're not sure if you'll need it. This trick was an absolute godsend when abseiling down the Gorropu gorge in Sardinia with very high winds.

[jwi]

I have been thinking about this a bit again, after having recently climbed a route on gear again. I must say that the whole premise is a bit of a mystery to me. I mean, it is just climbing after all? The difficult part of climbing is climbing, right? Not putting in bits? I realise that it is trickier to put in wires then cams, but most people climb mostly with a rack that is heavy on cams and light on wires nowadays anyway?

Anyway. A mystery. I don't think I am particularly brave or clever with gear either.

[Fiend]

Top post 

"Gear is good if you're strong enough to hang around and place it..." etc etc 

[Duncan campbell]

I’d say in the UK we still climb on wire heavy racks. I very rarely carry a double rack of cams but regularly carry a triple set of wires (Pembroke especially).

The difficulty of trad climbing is the unknown and navigating your way through this unknown as safely as possible?

The climbing is one part of that

[mrjonathanr]

The difficult part of climbing is climbing, right? Not putting in bits? I realise that it is trickier to put in wires then cams,

You wouldn’t say that if you’d ever over-retracted and jammed a cam badly into the only viable placement in a state of sweaty-pawed anxiety.

Wires have an elegant simplicity, though you can mess them up too.

[SamT]

I mean, it is just climbing after all? The difficult part of climbing is climbing, right?

Not sure if I've mis-understood you but simply no.

The climbing can be the really easy bit.  If your heads gone to bits and your pumping out trying to fiddle in a wire with your leg shaking like elvis, even though your on good holds, then no, the climbings the easy bit.

The whole point of trad, and to me all of climbing,  harks back to the simple notation that you arrive at the bottom of a cliff, with only your wits and a bit of gear and successfully and as safely possibly climb it to the top of the route, in the purest style possible.  On site soloing is at the top of this pyramid, everything else comes below that in some sort of heirachy.
Why is an onsite so coverted, even in sport climbing.  Why do we even bother with 'leading' sports routes.  Why doesn't a top rope of a hard sport route 'count'.

I'm not saying I dont enjoy sport climbing, or bouldering or whatever, but at the heart of it all is that very basic notion of on site, bottom to top.

[Wellsy]

It's always interesting to learn what people get from climbing and how it can differ quite a lot! Which is a good thing imo, but still

[petejh]

The difficult part of climbing is climbing, right? Not putting in bits? I realise that it is trickier to put in wires then cams, but most people climb mostly with a rack that is heavy on cams and light on wires nowadays anyway?

Said like a person who’s never fallen much onto trad gear? And/or had gear rip on them?

Many people struggle with the idea of really going for it above their gear, partly due to the natural fear of falling, but also because the feeling of apprehension is enhanced in trad climbing because gear does rip and rock does fail - the premise of trad protection relies on fractured rock after all… Sometimes it’s unpredictable what will happen in a trad fall where the gear stopping you from hitting something maybe isn't in a completely solid area of rock confirmed (probably..) as bomber by the route equipper with their hammer.
Also routes tend to be less steep than sport routes so more to hit.

The whole game when played well is a feeling of constantly updating risk-management as much as movement.

[cheque]

I like trad climbing, specifically on sight/ ground up trad climbing because all the many factors that make climbing really hard are left in. With sport, bouldering and headpointing you’ve taken some combination of those things (Duncan summarises them well was “the unknown” I guess) out, either for convenience or so you can concentrate on just the physical difficulty. That just leaves me cold at this point in my life.

It’s really satisfying to gradually become a better trad climber and it always feels like the type of climbing where you’re most connected to your partners. When I thought I’d fucked it and my life as a climber was over it was the memories of doing routes with people, of climbing significant physical features and of doing things first go that I looked back on and that meant mainly trad. Seigeing, and personal grade milestones weren’t there at all and that’s really stuck with me.

[jwi]

The difficult part of climbing is climbing, right? Not putting in bits? I realise that it is trickier to put in wires then cams, but most people climb mostly with a rack that is heavy on cams and light on wires nowadays anyway?

Said like a person who’s never fallen much onto trad gear? And/or had gear rip on them?

I must have taken more than a hundred falls on trad gear, but it was admittedly a long time ago. I have ripped very few pieces and only one that I was absolutely sure it was going to hold, leading to a long fall (I was extremely lucky that a questionable piece just below held).

[SA Chris]

Maybe just accept that we are all different and some people's head game is not as strong as yours?

[Duma]

I suspect that being a massive stamina wad like jwi also helps, as does climbing a full number grade below your redpoint limit.

[jwi]

Maybe just accept that we are all different and some people's head game is not as strong as yours?

Maybe. I do feel pretty scared a lot of the time, and absolutely terrified sometimes -- even when sport climbing -- so I have always assumed that my head is average.

I might just be unjustifiably confident in my mechanical engineering skills/ intuition 🤷🏼‍♂️

I suspect that climbing a lot of onsight on sport helps. I have noticed before that people who do a lot of onsight sport climbing learn trad faster than those who mostly redpoint.

[Fiend]

I suspect that being a massive stamina wad like jwi also helps, as does climbing a full number grade below your redpoint limit.

and anyone who ignores that / takes it for granted needs a 

[spidermonkey09]

I might just be unjustifiably confident in my mechanical engineering skills/ intuition 🤷🏼‍♂️

I think this is the root of it. Your posts are always extremely logical and spell out exactly how 1+1=2, but most people aren't built that way and to a greater or lesser extent, aren't able to separate what they know to be likely true (the gear will almost certainly hold) from their feared outcome (it won't). Thinking like an engineer is probably very useful in lots of situations but I suspect not in terms of empathising with others experience of something you perhaps see as quite logical and self explanatory.

I suspect that being a massive stamina wad like jwi also helps, as does climbing a full number grade below your redpoint limit.

This would also help!

[Fiend]

Like a F8c stamina wad??

[Will Hunt]

what they know to be likely true (the gear will almost certainly hold) from their feared outcome (it won't).

Also, when there's a good chance that you'll be testing the gear, and the consequences of the "feared outcome" is life-changing injury/death, then it's perfectly understandable to set quite a high bar for how confident we need to be in the gear before going for it.

I get the impression that jwi often has a lot of space below his feet when trad climbing; on gritstone there's often very little redundancy with everything coming down to one or two pieces of protection.