[Teaboy]

Not done much trad climbing in last 5 years and finding it tough getting back into it. Hard not to make comparisons how I used to fare on trad routes.

I was having this exact same issue this week but at an even lower floor, at least you haven’t just moved to an area of predominantly trad climbing with a view to doing more trad! I’ve also started working a route (as a medium term project) I dropped the very last move of OS a few years ago.

Sorry, I have no sage words of advice, just empathising!

[Wood FT]

Are you going to Pabbay aswell? You get a healthy margin on the grades there (for good reason) but I found Dies Irae harder than Sugar Cane Country on Pabbay and Darius certainly harder than anything on Voyage of faith on Mingulay.

Get fit on the rubicon trav etc. You’ll have a cracker if you arrive primed. I’d put that as a priority rather than getting your ‘trad head’ which is surely always lurking in you.

[spidermonkey09]

I always think fitness is absolutely paramount for trad rather than headgame or similar. The best trad trips I've had are when I've done a load of sport climbing. It always takes me a few routes to get my eye in with gear anyway.

[Stabbsy]

Can’t comment on Pabbay, but I thought the grades on Mingulay were quite crag dependent. I think a lot of the stuff on Dun Mingulay gets repeats so the grades have settled, some of the other stuff less so. I found some stuff on Craig Dubh (I think, backside of the Dun Mingulay headland) quite tough and also a couple of things on Guarsay Mor similar. However, this was 20 years ago so the new guide might have sorted things out.

In terms of fitness over headgame, not sure I agree. You’re rarely going to find an E5 with climbing harder than F7b and you’re more likely looking at F6c+. In your case Jim (as an F8c sport climber), you’re overpowering the routes with fitness - margins upon margins. In Shark’s case, he could try and use F7c/8a fitness to overpower the routes or just get good at climbing F6b/+ above gear. I know which would come to me easier!

[Wood FT]

In terms of fitness over headgame, not sure I agree. You’re rarely going to find an E5 with climbing harder than F7b and you’re more likely looking at F6c+. In your case Jim (as an F8c sport climber), you’re overpowering the routes with fitness - margins upon margins. In Shark’s case, he could try and use F7c/8a fitness to overpower the routes or just get good at climbing F6b/+ above gear. I know which would come to me easier!

The thing is, Shark is good at that and has decades of experience to burrow down into. Fitness allows you the time to be competent and competence breeds confidence. The key ingredients, in my opinion*.


*opinion is from a climber who has not trad climbed since Summer 2018 when head game collapsed. Said climber could just be bitter.

[shark]

Thanks but I’m not good at it at the moment but it is only day 3. Being fitter would stop me getting quite so pumped (which is also scary) so agree with that. Main thing is I want to get more confident and actually enjoy it. At the moment I scarcely recognise the type of climber I used to be despite being significantly stronger. Hopefully I can get some of that confidence and enjoyment back this time round. If not I’ll sack it off for good.

[Stabbsy]

The thing is, Shark is good at that and has decades of experience to burrow down into. Fitness allows you the time to be competent and competence breeds confidence. The key ingredients, in my opinion*.

I’m well aware of this! However, he hasn’t done much recently so it might be more accurate to say “Shark was good at that, but has decades of experience to burrow down into” and that has different implications (to me at least). The decades of experience means it will probably come back, but it’s not there right now - if I was in Shark’s position, I’d be doing exactly what he’s doing.

So if a F7c climber is getting pumped on F6c climbing, is it because they’re not fit enough or because they’re over gripping? If they then improve their fitness to F8a and scrape up the route because they can fight that pump, have they improved their competence as a trad climber or just sidestepped the issue?

I’m looking at this from very much of a personal perspective. I think I’d onsighted F7a and redpointed F7b when I first climbed E5. Over the years, my sport climbing improved but trad climbing stayed stuck at E5, so the fitness didn’t breed competence/confidence. I could do less trad climbing and still get up E5s, so you could argue that the fitness allowed room for incompetence and complacency. Either way, I was arguably a worse trad climber relative to my climbing ability.

Totally accept that there’s 2 ways of going about it, but (to me) one of them is efficient (if a little uncomfortable and an ego-kicking) and one isn’t.

[Johnny Brown]

Main thing is I want to get more confident and actually enjoy it

Agree with Stabbsy, as I said on the other thread put the ego to one side temporarily, drop down the grades until you find where you are confident and enjoying it, then work back up. You'll go back up quicker than you think, and you can get your gear game back up to speed while not worrying too much above the moves. Going off and training fitness will just give you the means to fanny about (even) more.

[T_B]

Some people are better than others at circumventing trad mileage, but it’s only possible IMO if you have a really good head. Sure on some trad routes sport fitness is helpful, but personally I think it’s overstated and not that relevant until E6 and above. Much more relevant is a bit of bouldering power and confidence to just go for it.

[Johnny Brown]

I reckon Shark will read that and take from it that he needs to train bouldering power.

[T_B]

I suppose I’m trying to say he’s got the power already, just needs mileage on trad. But then that sounds so ridiculously obvious I’m not sure why I’m even posting!

[Duma]

I reckon Shark will read that and take from it that he needs to train bouldering power.

Ha! And then train power endurance.

[SA Chris]

...and maybe a long term redpoint project to improve power endurance?

[TobyD]

Some people are better than others at circumventing trad mileage, but it’s only possible IMO if you have a really good head. Sure on some trad routes sport fitness is helpful, but personally I think it’s overstated and not that relevant until E6 and above. Much more relevant is a bit of bouldering power and confidence to just go for it.

Largely agree with that, although true bouldering power isn't often relevant until you get to E6 either, you can fanny up any number of E5s without proper sport fitness, and be very weak, if you have a dose of confidence and the ability to place good gear under pressure.

[Wood FT]

I’ve listened to the above and have now decided you are all correct.

I stand down.

As punishment, I promise never to climb trad again. It’ll be tough but I know it’s the right thing to do.

[spidermonkey09]

There are obviously multiple ways to skin the cat. I still think doing a shitload of circuits to absolutely minimise the stress felt when placing gear, allow recovery on good holds and move fast through easy climbing, all feed into the more cerebral aspects of trad climbing which I struggle with as much as anyone. When I'm not pumped, or even less pumped, I can place good gear, think clearly about the next sequence and make better decisions. Obviously you can do all these things whilst also being unfit, but I think that way it's more based on vibes which isnt as reliable.

I don't actually think Simon and I are that different here. I did loads of trad for years, then basically stopped for about 5 years. Last year I did the most I have for ages and loved it, but it was based on feeling fit (although nowhere near as fit as Stabbsy thinks I am, I fell off loads of E5s!)

[mrjonathanr]

So if a F7c climber is getting pumped on F6c climbing, is it because they’re not fit enough or because they’re over gripping?

Or maybe it’s because they are gripped, fannying around and dithering in positions they could be comfortable climbing through, but struggle to commit.

[Duncan campbell]

This is an interesting one…

As has been said above, there are multiple ways to skin a cat for sure! In my two best years of trad (ie the two I o/sed 2/3 E6s) were very opposite in terms of my preparation.

Year 1 I did loads of trad with a bit of sport. 3 months in oz where I mostly trad climbed but also did serpentine (blurry line between trad and sport) and some mid 7ish sport. That year I did roughly 20 E5s and 2 soft E6s.

Year 2 (last year) I had trained loads over winter and then did quite a lot of sport climbing. Mostly red pointing and often trying supercool. I managed to o/s 2 E6s and flashed another after abbing it to check kit/make sure it was clean. However I failed to o/s any E5s!!! I think I tried about the same amount of E5s as 6s and all bar one were hard E5 6bs. But still! Bit shambles!

I always think if you can warm up on 7as onsight in Spain that’s a nice starting point for E5s as it essentially means that with a more reasonable warm up you have the base levels of strength fitness to do an E5. Worth noting that trad requires more fitness than sport (obvs)

And Jim just cos you fell off E5s doesn’t mean you didn’t still have plenty in hand. But it’s also worth noting that E5s are fairly tricky even if you have onsighted 7c and red pointed 8c.

I often also feel like a bag of scared spanners on things a couple of grades below my perfect challenge zone. Which can be off putting to try harder. But I often feel better on tricker routes.

Shark. I don’t know if you have some grade you are hoping to feel comfortable on, but I’d maybe say it might be worth just making sure you are happy on E1-3 ground.

Worth noting that if late you have had a very poor diet in terms of variety of new moves, which is exactly what trad is.

You have been fine tuning a small selection of moves and focusing on minutae, not learning to fudge your way through sequences. A bit of horseshoe quarry main wall action can be good to just get exercising the brain and body in new moves and then graduate to some trad? Build the trad up steadily too.

 I know you said you would like to o/s E6 having never previously managed that, but for now I would say set your mind to slightly more moderate aims. Not saying it won’t ever happen but often I find lofty goals make me feel worse about my climbing if I think of how I feel on easier routes to be markers of ability for them. Last year would be a good example of why that’s not a good idea!

Don’t know if any of that is helpful.

Ahhh trad it’s soul food for sure.

[spidermonkey09]

Agree with all that, especially the bit about E5s being hard still! 6c/+ on bolts can still be fucking hard and awkward, let alone trying to fiddle gear in.

[petejh]

Thanks but I’m not good at it at the moment but it is only day 3. Being fitter would stop me getting quite so pumped (which is also scary) so agree with that. Main thing is I want to get more confident and actually enjoy it. At the moment I scarcely recognise the type of climber I used to be despite being significantly stronger. Hopefully I can get some of that confidence and enjoyment back this time round. If not I’ll sack it off for good.

Wondered what this was about then I read your comment on powerclub, explains it all really:

T.  ...we went to Stoney. Went on Dies Irae E2 which I remember waltzing up BITD but that was then. .... Traumatic.
F. High Tor..... I went on Darius... Took a long time but managed to it clean with manageable levels of trauma. Almost enjoyed it.

Getting back into trad on Stoney and High Tor - polished peak lime trad crags notorious for feeling hard for the grade and which are now even more polished then they were when they used to be considered hard, feel difficult to a man who hasn't trad climbed for a few years. Whatever next...!
Does this really need a self-examination of trad abilities? No. That stuff's just hard if you aren't climbing it regularly. Go to Wales and cruise up easy E2s for a few days, your 'problem' will be solved. High Tor (or the Lakes) will always be there to bring you back to earth, hopefully only figuratively, and remind you how desperate whatever trad grade you pissed up last week can actually feel.

[shark]

Shark. I don’t know if you have some grade you are hoping to feel comfortable on, but I’d maybe say it might be worth just making sure you are happy on E1-3 ground.

Just want to be able to enjoy the Mingulay trip which means not being unreasonably scared all the time and fit enough to lead a decent volume of routes at E2/3. Like Pete said trad at Stoney and High Tor are hard so hopefully it’s good prep and Mingulay will be straightforward by comparison.

[Duncan campbell]

That’s definitely achievable!!

Tbh if you can I’d try and get over to some sea cliffs in wales. The grading will be closer plus the atmosphere will be more akin to what you will get on mingulay. Supplemented by some peak like trad to make you appreciate how soft every where else is!

[SA Chris]

My experience of climbing on gneiss (mostly Sheigra to be fair) is it is generally fairly steep with a lot of gear placements, and if you are less than confident you can easily lace the routes hanging off small holds, and get pumped out your mind in the process.
When I have been climbing well there, the best approach for me is to stick in a couple of good bits when you are at a "reasonable" rest, and be prepared to run it out to the next rest and recover there, knowing good gear will always (usually) be there. Not only is it an efficient way to climb, but also an enjoyable one, and more akin to a lot of Pembroke than Peak Lime where the rock is more compact and gear placements are limited. Takes a while to get the confidence to climb past bomber placements though. 

[Teaboy]

I don’t think any sport climber will have problems with easily trainable physicalities of the trad routes they aspire to. What might be missing is the ability to hold uncomfortable positions for long periods and the calf and toe endurance. For the former yoga might help but for the latter I guess only mileage will do.
Regarding the mental aspects, when you’re scared the physical difficulty almost doesn’t matter. The other day I was petrified looking at two well placed wires, it didn’t matter that the next move was 5a or 6a when you’ve convinced yourself holds are going to break and wires will lift out.

[Fultonius]

For Mingulay in the E2/E3 range you will be:

- unlikely to find many "hard" sequences
- need a confident head questing around following what seem quite vague route descriptions
- ability to make the most of the available gear (unlike sheigra a lot of the placements are more spaced and sometimes funky)
- abiltity to just keep trucking and be confident you'll get to better holds

You will rarely find long, sustained sections of tricky climbing. It's not nearly as calf pump inducing as granite.

I'd say go and do dream of white horses and work up to doing things like Godzilla at Rhoscolyn, with everything in between.

DO NOT GO BOULDERING
DO NOT DO SHORT PE
DO NOT CLIMB LIME

maybe a trip to the lakes would work. Also, abseil off the top of goredale or soemhwere scary, oherwise you'll fill your pants going off Dun Mingulay.