[erm, sam]

Which are these 7Cs that are easier than West Side, please?

My thoughts exactly.

[Dingdong]

Ova Arm, Les Grand Doigts, zaff skocylas, Mossatrocity, cap gun, truffle, spring voyage, submergence, bens wall, domes sit, brass monkeys, echo chamber, diagon alley etc etc these are all easier than west side story  and it’s no secret that most people consider west side 7C especially after the pebble on the face broke making the move to the break even harder if you’re short.

[Bradders]

Which are these 7Cs that are easier than West Side, please?

Brass Monkeys, Tetris, Hannibal, Pigs Make Nests (and the sit), Domes Sit and maybe Master Kush. For me anyway.

[teestub]

If the problems being pointed out as easier aren’t in a similar style to the supposed sandbag, it just makes one look technically deficient, rather than indicating an upgrade is required 

[Dingdong]

Nah it’s just a sandbag for sure

[spidermonkey09]

Ova Arm, Les Grand Doigts, zaff skocylas, Mossatrocity, cap gun, truffle, spring voyage, submergence, bens wall, domes sit, brass monkeys, echo chamber, diagon alley etc etc these are all easier than west side story  and it’s no secret that most people consider west side 7C especially after the pebble on the face broke making the move to the break even harder if you’re short.

I thought west side was ok at 7B+ and I'm 5'7''. Maybe you are technically deficient at vert climbing, just like I'm technically deficient at squeezing.

Also whatr stubs said, build a list of vert 7Cs you think are easier...

[Dingdong]

I wouldn’t say I’m technically deficient at vert, I actually climb most of west side quite easily but I still think it’s harder than 7B+ My point was more that things feel different to different people who are of different sizes etc going back to wills downgrade of sleepwalker

[Will Hunt]

I was fortunate enough to come to it with decent skin, decent rubber, and good connies and it felt low-end 7B+ to me. I'm sure I'd find the steep squeezes you've listed harder. I am crap at steep squeezing, that doesn't mean I declare all the steep squeezes I can't do a grade harder.

I wouldn’t say I’m technically deficient at vert

Didn't you also leave a comment on The Storm on UKC saying "7C all day"? That was downgraded years ago and rightly so.

[Dingdong]

Didn’t the storm used to be 8A originally? Seems like quite the mental downgrade. Again I found the storm easy, doesn’t mean I can’t give my opinion on the grade 

Also Will don’t forget you’re about a foot taller than me… oh and thanks for the pebble beta on the storm, actually helped loads!

[User deactivated.]

Arguing over 1 grade is pointless, even within a given style. Reducing the scale to 'low 7', 'high 7', 'low 8', etc. still wouldn't completely eliminate debate. How many more debates do we need to see for this to be obvious to everyone?

[Will Hunt]

Also Will don’t forget you’re about a foot taller than me

If you've done The Storm at 4 foot 10 inches then fair play to you.

[Bradders]

If the problems being pointed out as easier aren’t in a similar style to the supposed sandbag, it just makes one look technically deficient, rather than indicating an upgrade is required 

A fair comment, I was thinking Peak centric but in comparable style in Yorkshire I think it's about the same as Agrippa, The Titfield Thunderbolt Sit, The Flakes Sit, Andy's Problem Sit, Archimedes and Finches Fuel Sit.

Arguing over 1 grade is pointless, even within a given style. Reducing the scale to 'low 7', 'high 7', 'low 8', etc. still wouldn't completely eliminate debate. How many more debates do we need to see for this to be obvious to everyone?

But yes also this. They're all high 7s. As Sleepwalker is clearly a high 8. Job done.

[teestub]

Arguing over 1 grade is pointless,

Yes let’s go back to discussing people arguing about the grade of a problem most of us have never seen, let alone will climb, instead 😄

[User deactivated.]

But yes also this. They're all high 7s. As Sleepwalker is clearly a high 8. Job done.

But is Ben's high 7 or low 8? And so it continues...

[Ross Barker]

The first law of bouldering discussion is that it all eventually leads to bickering about tall people downgrading things

[jwi]

this discussion is almost funnier than the comment thread below Will Bosi's instagram post

Anway, just switch to Japanese kyu-dan grading, 3dan = 7C+ to 8A, 4 dan = 8A+ to 8B, 5 dan = 8B+ to 8C, 6 dan 8C+ to 9A. Sleepwalker just got downgraded from 6 dan to 5 dan.

[Dingdong]

The first law of bouldering discussion is that it all eventually leads to bickering about tall people downgrading things

I don’t think there’s anything wrong with that, it’s good for people to give their honest opinions on how something felt, I have more respect for people doing that than not. I climb with someone who’s over 6’ regularly and I’m totally aware of how stuff feels way easier for them and it’s personal.

I do think some stuff can be historically sandbagged and people can maybe feel some kind of pride to it being graded harder than it actually is. At least that’s kind of my thoughts on west side. I was just in Albarracin and I had a super strong polish fellow ask me “is everything on grit really sandbagged like people say it is?” 

[yetix]

Like everywhere the peak has sandbags and it has softies. Maybe it has more sandbags than softies idk. Some of these might just be soft or sandbagged for you (or you and your collective group who might have similar views to you informed by climbing together alot)

Albarracins grades will never make much sense because the holds are eternally changing, by brushing or hold breakage. Look at Zazamora the holds have changed just via brushing in a massive ways. The issue there is just people don't acknowledge this and so there's constant information assymetry. Then people look back at old grades and say people have taken massive grades for things, when infact the blocs have changed quite massively (in my experience having been in 2016,17,19 and 20-21)

People say magic woods is soft, I found it nails but hadn't climbed inside for 3 years when I went and had zero snappyness, having recently been going on a board again I'm sure I'd have a very different perspective on that now.

I will forever find it wild how confident people can be over grades being x or y though. The more I do the less things make sense.

[SA Chris]

The first law of bouldering discussion is that it all eventually leads to bickering about tall people downgrading things

For 'tis writ in the Gospels of St Jerry thus "For where two or three gather in my name, a grade debate shall be among them"

[dave k]

…. Same thing as normal, different body types will have a different experience. I have a -1 reach which means I had to do a few extra hard adjustments to reach the slot crimp, and I couldn’t pinch the top hold since my hands didn’t span. It felt 16 for me compared to other climbs but also it doesn’t mean it’s 16 for everyone, as seen by wills post. Doesn’t mean any of us are right or wrong the grade just gives a relative experience on it

Drew's view on the grade is very influential in the US and despite not having climbed V17 yet, he has a huge experience of V14+ (90 ish) including more V15 and 16s than Will.

It will be interesting to see if Will gets to sample other US hard problems to see how quickly he does other V14 and 15s.

[Dingdong]

Like everywhere the peak has sandbags and it has softies. Maybe it has more sandbags than softies idk. Some of these might just be soft or sandbagged for you (or you and your collective group who might have similar views to you informed by climbing together alot)

Albarracins grades will never make much sense because the holds are eternally changing, by brushing or hold breakage. Look at Zazamora the holds have changed just via brushing in a massive ways. The issue there is just people don't acknowledge this and so there's constant information assymetry. Then people look back at old grades and say people have taken massive grades for things, when infact the blocs have changed quite massively (in my experience having been in 2016,17,19 and 20-21)

People say magic woods is soft, I found it nails but hadn't climbed inside for 3 years when I went and had zero snappyness, having recently been going on a board again I'm sure I'd have a very different perspective on that now.

I will forever find it wild how confident people can be over grades being x or y though. The more I do the less things make sense.

That’s what I replied to him “not necessarily sandbagged everywhere, spends on the crag, the problem, the FAist etc”

[Bradders]

The more I do the less things make sense.

Full agree

But yes also this. They're all high 7s. As Sleepwalker is clearly a high 8. Job done.

But is Ben's high 7 or low 8? And so it continues...

You need to stop cutting down trees at Hawkcliffe and go find out mate

[spidermonkey09]

It will be interesting to see if Will gets to sample other US hard problems to see how quickly he does other V14 and 15s.

Hard to imagine Bosi not making mincemeat of eg Jade. It would be fun to let him loose on the Peabody boulder as well. He might have done these already tbf

[JamieG]

The more I do the less things make sense.

This is the most accurate statement about grades! They have a purpose and mostly serve it, but also frequently make absolutely no sense. Best not to worry about it.

[yetix]

I think part of the issue is that people often lean into they need to make absolute sense so they can have taken grade x or y rather than also recognising grades are also there to inform a person of an rough experience they will have if they were to try that compared to something of a similar style (although what is a similar style I suppose can become quite nuanced depending on who you ask).