[Danny]

Amazing effort from Will. I can't help but think this problem would be viewed as a classic if it was here in the UK. Have to say if I'd found it first the ledge would be in on everything, and I'd probably be lanking to the top at ~6B. I'm constantly filled with existential dread when drawing the line between rock and the ground on new stuff.

[moose]

I'm constantly filled with existential dread when drawing the line between rock and the ground on new stuff.

Same here on some established stuff.  Where does the "plinth" begin and end!?! My main issue is that as I'm tall, I am always second guessing which holds would be within reach for the nominal average climber.  Many a time I have got home after a session of frustration, watched a youtube video, and found that my failure was due to trying to do a sit start using smears for hands! 

And back on topic... Will Bosi's 8b+ flash is an impressive achievement but if I wanted to summarise the arbitrariness and pure difficulty of bouldering that would be a contender - a sideways arse drag around a corner!

[Bonjoy]

I'm constantly filled with existential dread when drawing the line between rock and the ground on new stuff.

Same here on some established stuff.  Where does the "plinth" begin and end!?! My main issue is that as I'm tall, I am always second guessing which holds would be within reach for the nominal average climber.  Many a time I have got home after a session of frustration, watched a youtube video, and found that my failure was due to trying to do a sit start using smears for hands! 

This is a needless pain we’ve inflicted on ourselves out of a desire to pretend bouldering is simpler and purer than it really is. The general disdain for clearly specified start holds is illogical and outdated (nobody has a problem with it indoors). IMO on harder things where it matters, unless the start position is blindingly obvious, or irrelevant, we should just stop messing around and state where problems are graded to start from as a matter of course, especially on sit starts. Certainly, where it has a material influence on the grade, and when online and page space is not an issue. This would also help do away with some standard sit start cheating – pad stacking, almost-sitting starts off higher holds; copycat cheating off video beta; sit starting offline then reaching back in.

[User deactivated.]

Is it cheating to throw for the first hand move with the momentum gained from lifting your bum off the ground, or must one always lift up, pause to kill the momentum,  and then make the first hand move?

[abarro81]

Is it cheating to throw for the first hand move with the momentum gained from lifting your bum off the ground, or must one always lift up, pause to kill the momentum,  and then make the first hand move?

Whatever the answer, any problem where you have to ask this question is not a good rock climb.

[SA Chris]

Is it cheating to throw for the first hand move with the momentum gained from lifting your bum off the ground, or must one always lift up, pause to kill the momentum,  and then make the first hand move?

As the wise man Mike Skinner once said Has It Come To This?

[edshakey]

Should a short person who can't reach the accepted/defined holds crouch or stack pads to begin?

Is it cheating to throw for the first hand move with the momentum gained from lifting your bum off the ground, or must one always lift up, pause to kill the momentum,  and then make the first hand move?

100% vote for not allowing momentum gained from pulling up. Either pause, or the move should be trivial and you're doing it for speed, but if you can't do it without it, that sounds like cheating.

Reckon the boulder could be good Barrows, but maybe just really hard for the person and they're trying to cheat through it!

[Bonjoy]

Have you got any examples where this might be relevant/advantageous Liam? I'm struggling to think of any. But my first instinct is that so long as you are starting sat down and pulling on with the start holds then it's fine to utilise arse thrust.

Ed - I think if the start holds are specified it's fine for shorter folk to add pad width in order to start sat down. Certainly preferable to just pulling on the start holds from a non sit position, which can be considerably easier.

[SA Chris]

Enough pads for them to sit comfortably, or just enough so they can reach the holds

[sxrxg]

Obvious example of this for me is Smackhead at Galt yr Ogof. First move seems much easier with an arse thrust. It is still a good problems though (not that I have done it) with a really fun final move...

[GazM]

Here's a possible example:

No idea how the FA did it. Cool looking problems.

[Bradders]

Here's a possible example:

No idea how the FA did it. Cool looking problems.

Oh wow, so many issues! The arse thrusting cheaty start off a folded (and propped up?) pad, the dab. Incredible. How does he sleep at night?

[Bonjoy]

Enough pads for them to sit comfortably, or just enough so they can reach the holds

I believe the court of sit start arbitration ruled on this matter in 2006, and concluded that the minimum number required to reach the holds was the maximum allowable in such instances.
Next.

[SA Chris]

case rests m'lud

[Danny]

Here's a possible example:

No idea how the FA did it. Cool looking problems.

Oh wow, so many issues! The arse thrusting cheaty start off a folded (and propped up?) pad, the dab. Incredible. How does he sleep at night?

  For a subtle but similar issue see the sit start to Eat It at Fair Head. Stand is 7A. Sit is 2 moves into it, of which the first is the crux. Hardest 7B+ I've ever tried, with a pull on then go approach. I think generating momentum from a bum rocket isn't cricket. However, pulling on and going cleanly, in one motion, is deffo easier than pausing. Is this cricket? Not clear to me.

[remus]

I'm going to bring out a heavily sprung sit start pad. Give it a little bounce and you'll be popped up past the first 6 inches of your sit start proj.

[crimpinainteasy]

Is it cheating to throw for the first hand move with the momentum gained from lifting your bum off the ground, or must one always lift up, pause to kill the momentum,  and then make the first hand move?

IMO you should always pause before doing the first move. On some problems, the crux is literally getting your bum off the ground.

[User deactivated.]

The only one that springs to mind for me is the one below. Seems I cheated on it! It doesn't top out due to brambles.

[crimpinainteasy]

Enough pads for them to sit comfortably, or just enough so they can reach the holds

I would say enough to pads sit comfortably however that feels for someone. Enough pads to reach the holds could be an absolute max span for a midget and a comfortable sit start for a lankster.

[chillax]

For a subtle but similar issue see the sit start to Eat It at Fair Head. Stand is 7A. Sit is 2 moves into it, of which the first is the crux. Hardest 7B+ I've ever tried, with a pull on then go approach. I think generating momentum from a bum rocket isn't cricket. However, pulling on and going cleanly, in one motion, is deffo easier than pausing. Is this cricket? Not clear to me.

For reference. Duffy making something that is not a piece of piss look like a piece of piss. Before the inevitable - the arrow was tape, not chalk!

Thread split time?

[Paul B]

Hardest 7B+ I've ever tried, with a pull on then go approach. I think generating momentum from a bum rocket isn't cricket. However, pulling on and going cleanly, in one motion, is deffo easier than pausing. Is this cricket? Not clear to me.

In my opinion that problem is very much a length thing rather than a strength thing. Perhaps as I was robbed of the FA by someone a smidgen taller? 

[SA Chris]

I would say enough to pads sit comfortably however that feels for someone. Enough pads to reach the holds could be an absolute max span for a midget and a comfortable sit start for a lankster.

Langsters (6ft plus) get nothing more than a single open pad. If they need extra pads to reach the holds too it's clearly not a sit start.

[Bonjoy]

Enough pads for them to sit comfortably, or just enough so they can reach the holds

I would say enough to pads sit comfortably however that feels for someone. Enough pads to reach the holds could be an absolute max span for a midget and a comfortable sit start for a lankster.

I disagree.The idea is not to try and make things as easy as they are for the tall, it's to make things possible from a sit for all heights.
For instance my new Froggat 7b sitter arete Blue 48. The sit move is stretched out for me (average height) off one pad and the first move is hence tricky. This move is pretty trivial for the tall as the undercut is easier to hold for them and they can take the arete higher. By your logic all non-tall folk are fine to trivialise the move by adding pad thickness.

[Anti]

Gallt yr Ogof is a great place to cheat the starts. A bunch of the problems have some hard pulls off the ground I suppose.

Saw this monstrosity the other day:



Might as well start on a ladder.

[Andy W]

There is certainly a creeping upwards trend. In Font the rule certainly used to be a sit start started on the ground, sans pad. If the first moves ie the start are hard, then adjusting those moves to suit different body shapes could then surely be applied to any of the moves on a problem. If you can't reach the holds from the ground (or generously lets say one average pad) then find another problem. I'm sure it all evens out in the end.