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Shoes with toes that aren't shit (Read 7115 times)

Liamhutch89

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Shoes with toes that aren't shit
April 12, 2022, 02:16:00 pm
This is a fairly esoteric description, but in many shoes, I often struggle with the sensation that my toe is too far from the rock, as though the rubber is in front of my toe rather than underneath it. As I'm heavy, I don't think that type of design works too well, but maybe it's just poor technique?

The shoe which doesn't do this and has been my number 1 rock climbing shoe for a couple of years is the La Sportiva Theory. It's marketed as an indoor comp shoe, but I do precisely none of that, instead using it for bouldering on grit, lime and boards.

Sometimes, I want more power on tiny edges than they deliver, but switching to any of the stiffer shoes I own only gives me worse performance as I end up losing confidence. I don't think its necessarily the stiffness but the toe further from the rock thing.

With that out the way, I do want something stiffer with more power, but something that gives me lots of confidence and sensitivity.

The Evolv phantom is an example of a shoe that doesn't work. They are a great fit but the pointyness just doesn't work for me (heel is good though and the quality beats sportiva/scarpa).

I hope this makes some sense and is enough to recommend some shoes that might work for me.


Ballsofcottonwool

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#1 Re: Shoes with toes that aren't shit
April 12, 2022, 02:29:19 pm
Its not poor technique its poor and lazy design from all the shoe manufacturers making shoes based on lasts shaped nothing like a human foot. (big or 2nd toe dramatically longer than the rest) I cut up an old pair of shoes that were 2 sizes too big and sewed them back together shaped on a last based on a cast of my own foot. Despite having no midsole, being softer than any slipper on the market and my crap DIY resole they were the best edging shoes I ever used because they actually fitted properly.

https://www.instagram.com/p/BqAmz1HBygb/

mrjonathanr

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#2 Re: Shoes with toes that aren't shit
April 12, 2022, 02:49:02 pm
Before considering the properties of shoes it might be better to see if the last matches your foot shape. Why companies that literally owe their profitability to this working for customers don't make a real effort to explain and allow you to filter properly for this on their websites is beyond me.

There are two main considerations: width of your feet and toe shape. Here's a simple model of the latter:


I'd have a good look at which of your toes is at the apex, how wide your foot is, then hunt for models which might suit. From what you wrote I guess narrow and Greek.

The only website I have seen which makes an effort is Ocún, though Scarpa allow you to filter for 'centre' vs 'classic'.
eg https://www.ocun.com/product/diamond17

Given that the shoe companies hold all the data of last shapes, width, flexion etc, it surprises me that you cannot filter all this stuff as standard; one day it will be the norm.

danm

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#3 Re: Shoes with toes that aren't shit
April 12, 2022, 03:07:12 pm
Probably not done because those footshapes are archetypes so many real feet fall in between them, making a basic filter less useful. My feet are a mongrel of all 3 archetypes, so what ends up working for me is a broad, not too pointed assymetric fit. Instinct VSR are almost perfect.

Liamhutch89

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#4 Re: Shoes with toes that aren't shit
April 12, 2022, 03:10:01 pm
Interesting. I'm somewhere between Greek and Egyptian. My big toe is only marginally bigger then the next one so it's a curved line down to the smallest toe.

mrjonathanr

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#5 Re: Shoes with toes that aren't shit
April 12, 2022, 03:29:45 pm
Probably not done because those footshapes are archetypes so many real feet fall in between them,

Yes, there are as many variations as there are feet, but rather less variety in lasts. A filter would not be for feet, but the broad design of the last. In which case you could quickly see that the Boostic are a broad Egyptian, Miura VS narrow Egyptian, Instincts all broad Greek etc etc

cheque

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#6 Re: Shoes with toes that aren't shit
April 12, 2022, 04:55:23 pm
I'm somewhere between Greek and Egyptian.

Cretan?  ;)

I’ve mentioned this before but when I had a load of 70s & early 80s climbing mags I was amused to learn of the concept of “the British foot”, the idea that everyone born on these islands had big square hobbit feet that were ill-served by foreign shoes designed for euros who supposedly all had skinny pointy feet and presumably strings of onions and accordions around their necks. It used to be referenced in all shoe (mostly hiking boots because back then there was only one type of rock shoe that, I’m told, suited no-one) reviews and most adverts by British footwear brands.   :lol:

Helge

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#7 Re: Shoes with toes that aren't shit
April 12, 2022, 05:05:38 pm
My feet are similar to your description. The old red leather instinct laces worked well for me but aren't very stiff (and Scarpa heels are always baggy on me). Even though the Miura VS look very pointy and like they are designed for Egyptian feet, they fit my feet very well when worn in and sized small enough (37.5, street shoes 40.5 or 41). They are quite stiff and work well for me on limestone. It just takes two or three sessions to wear them in after which the 'rubber in front of toe' feeling disappears.

Might also be a sizing issue? I get the feeling you describe in shoes which are too large.

mrjonathanr

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#8 Re: Shoes with toes that aren't shit
April 12, 2022, 06:23:08 pm
Might also be a sizing issue? I get the feeling you describe in shoes which are too large.

Chatted to a lad who told me about buying secondhand Dragons which were cheap, but a bit big for him.

Said the downturn flipped up so they resembled Turkish slippers. Big feeling of rubber in front of toes.

Liamhutch89

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#9 Re: Shoes with toes that aren't shit
April 12, 2022, 07:55:49 pm
Definitely not sizing them too big. Im a 9.5/10uk in street shoes and go for a 7.5 in my sportivas and equivalent tightness in other brands.

I'll be keeping my eyes open for any boot demos coming up. Would love to try some unparallel shoes as I know nothing about them.

abarro81

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#10 Re: Shoes with toes that aren't shit
April 12, 2022, 08:05:46 pm
I feel your pain with awkward feet (for me it's a narrow low volume foot but with a big fat spade of a big toe).. most annoying is when you have a shoe that actually fits well and then they discontinue it and none of the new ones seem to fit as well!  :wall:

Yossarian

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#11 Re: Shoes with toes that aren't shit
April 12, 2022, 09:21:21 pm
I had some issues with the fit of the Unparallel NewTro (velcro rather than lace - might try the latter next time) in terms of the heel, but the front section fit / power / stiffness felt awesome. It was mainly an issue of fitting the rear of my feet into them, exacerbated by having a previously broken calcaneus which means one heel is much chunkier than the other.

Also, rather like you, I bought some crazy soft shoes (Furias) recently and, thought I'm very heavy currently, I've been surprised at how well they seem to work.

MischaHY

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#12 Re: Shoes with toes that aren't shit
April 13, 2022, 08:17:12 am
Definitely not sizing them too big. Im a 9.5/10uk in street shoes and go for a 7.5 in my sportivas and equivalent tightness in other brands.

I'll be keeping my eyes open for any boot demos coming up. Would love to try some unparallel shoes as I know nothing about them.

I'm 44.5/45 street and take Solutions/Miura in a 41.5 - softer shoes in a 42. Seems like a full size smaller than what you're doing so could be having an effect but does depend somewhat on foot shape.

Seperate point Liam but on the last couple of posts I've seen from you, you've said you're 'heavy' both times. What does this mean specifically? For reference I'm 83kg and don't experience the issues you're having with shoes. To me it sounds more like a technique issue, specifically not dropping your heel properly to engage more surface area. This would explain why the Theory works better as it is bending for you. I had a massive jump in my footwork when I realised how important it was to really drop my heels and spent a period of time focusing on it so could be worth having a mess around and seeing if it makes a difference.

Liamhutch89

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#13 Re: Shoes with toes that aren't shit
April 13, 2022, 08:32:54 am
Definitely not sizing them too big. Im a 9.5/10uk in street shoes and go for a 7.5 in my sportivas and equivalent tightness in other brands.

I'll be keeping my eyes open for any boot demos coming up. Would love to try some unparallel shoes as I know nothing about them.

I'm 44.5/45 street and take Solutions/Miura in a 41.5 - softer shoes in a 42. Seems like a full size smaller than what you're doing so could be having an effect but does depend somewhat on foot shape.

Seperate point Liam but on the last couple of posts I've seen from you, you've said you're 'heavy' both times. What does this mean specifically? For reference I'm 83kg and don't experience the issues you're having with shoes. To me it sounds more like a technique issue, specifically not dropping your heel properly to engage more surface area. This would explain why the Theory works better as it is bending for you. I had a massive jump in my footwork when I realised how important it was to really drop my heels and spent a period of time focusing on it so could be worth having a mess around and seeing if it makes a difference.

Interesting. I nearly wrote in my OP about possibly dropping my heels too much rather than not enough, but thought it was getting a bit off topic. I have a lot of dorsiflexion in my ankles (knee to wall test puts my foot 22cm away) and watching videos back of my climbing, it appears to me that my heels are usually lower than everyone else's, so perhaps I go too far with this technique or do it at the wrong times, but I've never really given it too much thought. I'll be conscious of it next time out and see what's what.

I weigh the same as you by the way and I think we're downsizing shoes by about the same amount. My Sportiva are 40.5 and my street shoe is 44 / 44.5. Most climbing shoes I own needed the plastic bag trick.

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#14 Re: Shoes with toes that aren't shit
April 13, 2022, 11:04:57 am
One thing I wondered when reading this was how long you are giving stiffer shoes?

I would expect a stiff pair of shoes (otaki/miura vs/instinct vs/lace/etc) to feel pretty clunky for a good few sessions. More if you are only bouldering in them.

However, once broken in they often feel better for longer for me.

Though I mainly use a stiff shoe (otaki) for sport and trad and a softer shoe (skwama) for bouldering.


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#15 Re: Shoes with toes that aren't shit
April 13, 2022, 06:57:18 pm
Could just be that you’re used to shoes with thin rubber. I looked up Sportiva Phantoms and Evolv Theories because I’d never heard of either of them and noticed that the Phantoms have 3.5mm thick rubber and Theories 4.2mm thick, so that’s going to be at least part of why they feel different.

I agree with Duncan on wearing shoes in- if you’re only using them for hard boulder or board problems then shoes take ages to wear in as the periods you’re putting weight through them for are so short.

mrjonathanr

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#16 Re: Shoes with toes that aren't shit
April 13, 2022, 07:19:25 pm
I looked up Sportiva Phantoms and Evolv Theories
The Reverend Spooner lives on, Mike.  ;)

cheque

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#17 Re: Shoes with toes that aren't shit
April 13, 2022, 09:20:41 pm
 ;D :slap:

Thedevonshirepiemuncher

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#18 Re: Shoes with toes that aren't shit
April 14, 2022, 07:15:34 am
Not trying to come across as a Scarpa fan boy but I do find that most of their techy models have the best feeling in the toe box as the sole finishes at the same point as the rand therefore your big toe is almost slightly further forward meaning you can really toe down with confidence, sort of similar to the old dragon
I find in solutions and skwama it doesn't matter how tight you  wear them , the rubber always projects 3 or 4mm further out than where your foot sits in the upper which gives a sensation of clunkyness
Weirdly I always wear out the very front edge of a Scarpa shoe where as in solutions it will be gone through 5mm back first and the edge will be almost intact which shows I am using the shoes in a completely different way I think.
Just my 2p's worth, might be a load of twaddle

Thedevonshirepiemuncher

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#19 Re: Shoes with toes that aren't shit
April 14, 2022, 07:20:58 am
Oh, and I would really recommend trying on the new boostic , it is rather good I think, and sound like what you may be after, tho I'm not the biggest fan of the heel compared to the furia which is my favourite soft shoe

mrjonathanr

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#20 Re: Shoes with toes that aren't shit
April 14, 2022, 07:36:20 am
What works best depends on your foot shape. It sounds like your big toe is the longest and you prefer shoes which match that shape.

Out of interest, what size is your street shoe and what size have you gone with in Boostics? Thanks

Thedevonshirepiemuncher

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#21 Re: Shoes with toes that aren't shit
April 14, 2022, 08:08:26 am
I basically make shoes fit a lot of the time so am happy to try many brands, the furia, drago, chimaera don't officially fit me as they are a bit narrow but I just bust them out by wearing them in front of the TV for hours before climbing in them
I am a ten UK and and a 42 in all Scarpa shoes really, that's a plastic bags  to get them on fitting , the boostic did break in quite quickly but it is wider than the furia so is a better fit it of the box for me
My big toe and second toe are the same length

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#22 Re: Shoes with toes that aren't shit
April 14, 2022, 08:16:59 am
I basically make shoes fit a lot of the time so am happy to try many brands, the furia, drago, chimaera don't officially fit me as they are a bit narrow but I just bust them out by wearing them in front of the TV for hours before climbing in them
I am a ten UK and and a 42 in all Scarpa shoes really, that's a plastic bags  to get them on fitting , the boostic did break in quite quickly but it is wider than the furia so is a better fit it of the box for me
My big toe and second toe are the same length

Damn that's small!

I'm a UK 10 in trainers, maybe 10.5 in professionally fitted running shoes and I'm 43.5 in most scarpa. I actually bought some 44 instinct lace recently for longer routes. 42 would break my toes!

I'm not a big fan of the new boostic heel, but the toe box is nice. I'm yet to really figure out what it's niche is - for me they cover a lot of the same ground as the instinct vs.

mrjonathanr

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#23 Re: Shoes with toes that aren't shit
April 14, 2022, 08:17:32 am
Cheers piemuncher. Sounds like you went down the same in Boostics as you do in the others. Yes, I find the Chimeras a bit narrow but as you say, they do stretch out.

Liamhutch89

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#24 Re: Shoes with toes that aren't shit
April 14, 2022, 09:12:17 am
Not trying to come across as a Scarpa fan boy but I do find that most of their techy models have the best feeling in the toe box as the sole finishes at the same point as the rand therefore your big toe is almost slightly further forward meaning you can really toe down with confidence, sort of similar to the old dragon
I find in solutions and skwama it doesn't matter how tight you  wear them , the rubber always projects 3 or 4mm further out than where your foot sits in the upper which gives a sensation of clunkyness
Weirdly I always wear out the very front edge of a Scarpa shoe where as in solutions it will be gone through 5mm back first and the edge will be almost intact which shows I am using the shoes in a completely different way I think.
Just my 2p's worth, might be a load of twaddle

I've never paid much attention to Scarpa as they don't seem to fit well when i've tried them on in the shop, but how you've described the toebox sounds promising. I might have to try and make some fit!

The Boostic and Mago both look to do a similar thing. The Chimera appears to be slightly more bouldering focused but if that just means it does better at toe hook/smearing/etc then I don't care as my Sportiva Theories do that already. Anyone tried two or more of those models?

Edit: diving into Scarpa marketing they advertise 'toe angle' as a thing. Could this be the secret sauce? In my head I want the highest possible toe angle.
« Last Edit: April 14, 2022, 09:30:56 am by Liamhutch89 »

Fultonius

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#25 Re: Shoes with toes that aren't shit
April 14, 2022, 10:04:21 am
Chimera and Boostic are polls apart!  The Chimera feels like a floppy sock, with minimal edge support. It is great for toe- hooking. I love it on sandstone.

Old magos were insane on edges, but not precise - kind of a blunt force weapon? Sorry, they were precise (your could get on teeny edges) but they were a bit insensitive. Not tried the new ones.

Boostic is a pretty good allrounder with decent precisions/power/sensitivity. Since you're not familair with the gen1 boostic I'll not lament the loss....

SA Chris

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#26 Re: Shoes with toes that aren't shit
April 14, 2022, 10:41:55 am
Chimera and Boostic are polls apart! 

Lovely eggcorn..

cheque

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#27 Re: Shoes with toes that aren't shit
April 14, 2022, 11:21:01 am
Old magos were insane on edges, but not precise - kind of a blunt force weapon? Sorry, they were precise (your could get on teeny edges) but they were a bit insensitive.

Old Magos are the only shoes I’ve ever owned that I had the “toes too far from the rock” sensation that Liam describes with. Absurdly stiff and thick-feeling. I was falling off moves that I had completely wired in them!

mrjonathanr

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#28 Re: Shoes with toes that aren't shit
April 14, 2022, 07:15:06 pm
Whereas I love my old Magos, a weapon on little limestone edges.
Liam- downward toe angle- that is what the Magos do, exactly. Each iteration is unfortunately softer than the last. You can pick up last season’s blue and yellows for about £90, bit of a bargain. I bought some. Bananafingers are pretty good about accepting returns if unused btw.
Another brand good with toe angle is Evolv, they have a bump to support your toes in a downward curled position. Love the Oracles, but they are soft. Nice grit shoe though.
Hope that helps.

Liamhutch89

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I bought some Instinct VS's and after testing them on my board, I feel like I have twice as much power in these shoes as I do in my Genius/Theory/Phantoms. This was surprising given the Instincts are a pretty old design now and they don't feel like they fit my foot quite as well (perhaps unfair given they're not yet broken in and I'm 3 sizes down from my street shoe). I now see that they're popular and have remained unchanged for good reason!

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Welcome to the fold brother.

Thedevonshirepiemuncher

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Have they got rid of the sensation of the rubber projecting further forward than your toes then?

I went to a sportiva demo the other night and the only shoe I tried that didn't have that feeling was the theory and the new mantra which is ridiculously soft and just wouldn't stand on an edge, I didn't try them on a board

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Whatever shape my toes once were, after >30 years of climbing they are now shaped like the inside of a climbing shoe, which is handy.
I used to exclusively wear 5.10s (Velcros and Pinks), I now pretty much only wear Dragos. I do occasionally use a saved pair of Velcros for things requiring heel spurs. The Dragos aren't perfect - the heel tends to peel, they wear out quick, and they're too soft for hard edging or steep tensiony footwork, but they're great for the climbing I do the most of i.e. grit bouldering and indoors. I think a good all round shoe is oxymoronic, you pick the shoe/s that fit/s the climbing you do. The best an all round shoe can be is adequate.

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I personally mega rate the Dragos. I got the Boostics for hard edges and I'm slightly less enamoured with them as they feel kinda chunky? But they're probably fine and I'm not used to em

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the new mantra which is ridiculously soft and just wouldn't stand on an edge, I didn't try them on a board

Bizaare. I've got the Mantras and find them amazing on small footholds. Possibly you had them too big or too small?

JJP

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Sounds like you are having to squeeze your feet in if using the paper to put them on.

like mischa think i down size a bit more than you in la sportiva`s.  i wear 7.5 in solutions and schwama (cant remember if my otaki s are 7.5 or 8) and im a 10.5 street size. 

as someone else was mentioning i do find the stiffer la sportiva s take a while to break in.  reckon for the solution im wearing them a good couple months before the toe feels like it gets soft and has good feel and sensitiveity on wood, plastic or rock.


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I bought some Instinct VS's and after testing them on my board, I feel like I have twice as much power in these shoes as I do in my Genius/Theory/Phantoms. This was surprising given the Instincts are a pretty old design now and they don't feel like they fit my foot quite as well (perhaps unfair given they're not yet broken in and I'm 3 sizes down from my street shoe). I now see that they're popular and have remained unchanged for good reason!

I love my Instincts. Have both VSs and VSRs which are great for different things, although the best pair are actually some VSs I had resoled with Grip rubber instead of Edge and they're amazing.

Spent all last year trying to climb on my board wearing a pair of Solution Comps and couldn't use my small footholds at all, to the point that I took them all off the board! Switched back to the resoled VSs and they feel far more usable.

SA Chris

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i wear 7.5 in solutions and schwama (cant remember if my otaki s are 7.5 or 8) and im a 10.5 street size. 


Wow. Foot binding is illegal in China now.

JJP

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Ye dont know what I did there meant to read 7.5 or 8 for the otaki`s.  La sportiva sizing is funny though, that drop doesnt feel esp uncomfortable and can wear those for long sessions without problem.  The toe box bit seems quite roomy and suspect my toes just bunch up a bit. Also have solutions in an 8 for longer stuff a can wear them a full session without needing to take em off.   

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I wear 6.5 futuras and am 9.5 street, just sportiva sizing innit

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the new mantra which is ridiculously soft and just wouldn't stand on an edge, I didn't try them on a board

Bizaare. I've got the Mantras and find them amazing on small footholds. Possibly you had them too big or too small?

Here's a random guess: the man from devon is 75kg+ and Mischa is <70kg. 

I think discussing shoes stiffness is utterly pointless if you don't know someone's weight and foot size. I've got mates who consider the Scarpa Vapour V "stiff" whereas I find them floppy...  He's 58kg and I'm 78ish.

The one shoes I've ever found genuinely stuff are the old boostics, gen 1 Magos and TC Pros.

MischaHY

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the new mantra which is ridiculously soft and just wouldn't stand on an edge, I didn't try them on a board

Bizaare. I've got the Mantras and find them amazing on small footholds. Possibly you had them too big or too small?

Here's a random guess: the man from devon is 75kg+ and Mischa is <70kg. 

I think discussing shoes stiffness is utterly pointless if you don't know someone's weight and foot size. I've got mates who consider the Scarpa Vapour V "stiff" whereas I find them floppy...  He's 58kg and I'm 78ish.

The one shoes I've ever found genuinely stuff are the old boostics, gen 1 Magos and TC Pros.

Jesus, I wonder where the other 13kg+ wandered off too! This morning I was 83.5kg.

I have however made the realisation over the last 2-3 years that sizing shoes too small can do as much harm to edging ability as sizing them too big. The shoe needs to be able to conform over the available surface area and this isn't possible in a shoe that is too small.

Over the last 6 months I've swapped all my shoes out for 0.5 sizes bigger and noted a marked improvement in edging ability. This is due to the more relaxed toes allowing the midsole/toebox to flex more and conform to the surface. It also allows you to drop your ankle more whilst still maintaining good pressure through the front edge which of course leads to being able to drive more power through the foothold.

I was amazed how much of a performance difference it made and now realise I've been sizing my shoes too small for years and it has negatively affected my performance esp. on small footholds on slightly overhanging terrain and on delicate slabs.

Fultonius

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Wildly off with that one!

I've gone up a half size in Instinct lace and keep expecting to find them sloppy but I'm yet to slip off anything!

Thedevonshirepiemuncher

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the new mantra which is ridiculously soft and just wouldn't stand on an edge, I didn't try them on a board

Bizaare. I've got the Mantras and find them amazing on small footholds. Possibly you had them too big or too small?

Here's a random guess: the man from devon is 75kg+ and Mischa is <70kg. 

I think discussing shoes stiffness is utterly pointless if you don't know someone's weight and foot size. I've got mates who consider the Scarpa Vapour V "stiff" whereas I find them floppy...  He's 58kg and I'm 78ish.

The one shoes I've ever found genuinely stuff are the old boostics, gen 1 Magos and TC Pros.

I am 91.5 kg I think, if that really matters
I'm not sure as I normally do ok in soft shoes , I routinely wear the futura indoors and the drago and furia more outside

The mantra might have been half a size too big I guess at a 42 as they are so stretchy? The heel was great I thought

Still, none of them will compete with a boostic on tiny edges out doors , you just can't get the same leverage out of your feet and calves in a soft shoe, or I can't anyway

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I really like the toe box on the Otakis, quite stiff and very precise. They have the same last as the Skwamas.

Pete Dawson does all his hard redpoints in the lace up version of them which is even stiffer.

Thedevonshirepiemuncher

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Can't get my foot in the otaki , the shoe pinches my foot really bad over the top where the first velcro strap is, a bit low volume I think
Never tried the kataki (the Lace version) but it does look great for edgy limestone

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Interesting to hear that, In my head the Otaki is a broader shoe since it feels so similar to the Skwama fit wise. Maybe it's because the rand is a bit tougher and doesn't mould quite as well. I think Macleod said that the Otakis don't fit him quite as well despite loving the Skwamas too actually.

 

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