[jakk]

Whereas a lot of the problems jumping around on big sloping volumes they often aren't as impressed by, as to the uninitiated a lot of the volumes often just look like jugs.

I have a hard agree on this, talking to non climbers like my mum, big blobs basically look like big blobs, and may as well be jugs. It's nontrivial for the non-climbing layperson to understand the general concept of slopiness and how that affects body position etc etc, but zooming in on filthy little edges or having some big jumps do convey difficulty much better.

Personally I think lead should go back to small dirty crimps and have the camera man zoom in close and instruct the commentators to go "wow! Nasty! Look at that super small edge!". Some real nasty classic resistance shit.

Bouldering is honestly a bit of a mess, I love it but it's objectively not a great show on average, maybe some moments but it's 3+ hours long these days! I'd love to see Percy trying something new.

[crimpinainteasy]

+1 on non climbers being most impressed by steep stuff. I've noticed people are often more impressed by campussing on jugs through a roof than they are by climbing a heinous sloper/pinch problem on a more vertical angle.

[Moo]

Are we intent on pushing boulder comps toward impressing a general audience ? If so then we might as well just set up a ninja warrior course and come up with our own title.

Gravity heroes or Vertical soldiers maybe ?

Even better we could have regular members of the public compete against professional climbers clad in lycra with amusing names like rhino, wolf or jet. 

[CapitalistPunter]

Will Bosi takes up snorting meth in an alleyway

[petejh]

Are we intent on pushing boulder comps toward impressing a general audience ? If so then we might as well just set up a ninja warrior course and come up with our own title.

Gravity heroes or Vertical soldiers maybe ?

Even better we could have regular members of the public compete against professional climbers clad in lycra with amusing names like rhino, wolf or jet.

If 'gravity heroes' was in the olympics then I'd definitely set aside an hour or two to watch it. They put snowboard-cross in so why not some other mindless brain-candy 

[Nemo]

Are we intent on pushing boulder comps toward impressing a general audience ?

No doubt the organisers are interested in that at least to some extent. 
The point though was that impressing a general audience is often one of the reasons given for a lot of the coordination jumping volumey blobby stuff and not setting in a more outdoor style. 
And I simply don't think that's a valid argument as that stuff often doesn't actually impress those people a fat lot.
Whereas pulling on small holds on a blank steep wall does.

[Moo]

Pulling on small holds on a blank steep wall isn’t a very good test of general climbing performance though. You might as well just have the world dead hanging championships.

[Wellsy]

I dunno how much I'd want to compromise the quality of the comp for the benefit of nonclimbing viewers. Why should we really care what they think about it? Is climbing any better for it? I dunno the answers but we all know that speed climbing is daft but it was absolutely the one the public liked the most, that doesn't make it any less daft though

[mattbirddog]

If we are doing rule changes then humbly throwing this in the mixer to save the soul of competition bouldering.

https://www.hotterthanchicken.com/

[spidermonkey09]

Pulling on small holds on a blank steep wall isn’t a very good test of general climbing performance though. You might as well just have the world dead hanging championships.

This. Plus it would be incredibly tedious to watch.

[moose]

Slightly off topic, but I thought a good insight into route setting was in a Climbing Gold podcast (Honnold's largely anodyne outlet - lots of adverts for "plant based eggs", "athletic greens" and...errr... whiskey!).

https://www.climbinggold.com/episodes/risk-intensity-complexity

The TLDR version is the most interesting part is when Adam Pustelnik, an IFSC route setter, outlines that he designs problems on 3 dimensions:

Risk - tenuousness, scary moves etc;
Intensity - strength and  power - the purely physical aspect;
Complexity - co-ordination, movement madness!

He tries to design sets of problems so that every climber has one they love, one they hate, and one in-between,  The winner is the person who can best cope with their weakness.

[Nemo]

Pulling on small holds on a blank steep wall isn’t a very good test of general climbing performance though.

I wasn't suggesting that every problem was set like that.  As I said previously, I'm all in favour of all types of outdoor bouldering being represented in comps from slopers to compression to crimps to pockets to complex technical stuff etc etc etc.  Above I was simply pointing out that if you are trying to prioritise impressing non climbers, then jumping around on blobs isn't IMO the way of going about it.

[Steve R]

Pulling on small holds on a blank steep wall isn’t a very good test of general climbing performance though. You might as well just have the world dead hanging championships.

Presumably not hard to add in significant skill component to 'pulling really hard up crimps on a wall' though?  (without resorting to conditions or skin dependent holds) Thinking tricky and mandatory accurate deadpoints to blocked holds/slots, awkward/unusual/tension-ey/directional feet and body positions, holds mounted on small, slick volumes that force the movement out of just the 2D plane.

One type of problem I don't see that often but personally find very entertaining is the relatively long, very physical type that's particularly hard to flash for whatever reason.  It's great when the climber's had a good first go, got quite far and, having being wrestling hard on the problem for ~1min, they're visibly absolutely bolloxed.  you know and they know, ~90sec winded rest and they have to go again, ooof.  May be totally wrong but I'd have guessed it's relatively easy to get separation on that type of problem too. 

Some interesting thoughts, thread's probably due a split....

[crimpinainteasy]

Pulling on small holds on a blank steep wall isn’t a very good test of general climbing performance though. You might as well just have the world dead hanging championships.

There should be a competition for who can do the most one armers on an 8mm edge.

[edshakey]

One type of problem I don't see that often but personally find very entertaining is the relatively long, very physical type that's particularly hard to flash for whatever reason.  It's great when the climber's had a good first go, got quite far and, having being wrestling hard on the problem for ~1min, they're visibly absolutely bolloxed.  you know and they know, ~90sec winded rest and they have to go again, ooof.  May be totally wrong but I'd have guessed it's relatively easy to get separation on that type of problem too.

If everyone only gets 2 goes though, it's not going to yield much splitting at all! Either T1Z1, T2Z1, Z1 or Z2. Assuming some people have a couple more go's, there's a little more to it, but it's nowhere near the same as a triple dyno that Tomoa flashes and someone else takes 10+ go's just to stick the zone. Despite how entertaining they are to watch as a proper battle, I'd have thought long physical boulders requiring time on wall and time resting are actually a route setters worst nightmare!

[Kingy]

Talking of deadhanging championships, noted Canadian crusher Yves Gravelle won 3 events at the 2019 APL Armlifting World Championships:

https://ironmind.com/news/Yves-Gravelle-Certifies-on-the-Crushed-To-Dust-Challenge/

Maybe this is the future? 

[Steve R]

There should be a competition for who can do the most one armers on an 8mm edge.

This is what Instagram is, isn't it?

[Steve R]

...relatively long, very physical type that's particularly hard to flash for whatever reason. 

If everyone only gets 2 goes though, it's not going to yield much splitting at all! Either T1Z1, T2Z1, Z1 or Z2.

Ah yes, good point. Hadn't thought that through properly.

[Bradders]

One type of problem I don't see that often but personally find very entertaining is the relatively long, very physical type that's particularly hard to flash for whatever reason.  It's great when the climber's had a good first go, got quite far and, having being wrestling hard on the problem for ~1min, they're visibly absolutely bolloxed.  you know and they know, ~90sec winded rest and they have to go again, ooof.  May be totally wrong but I'd have guessed it's relatively easy to get separation on that type of problem too. 

Totally agree on this, and again this is where steeper angles should play more of a part. No one's going to be doing coordination triple dynos through a 70' roof, but you could definitely do a properly physical, resistance power endurance problem with loads of teckers.

[Johnny Brown]

Well it's such a relief you guys are finally here and I hope Percy is taking notes, hard to believe he'd didn't think of that at some point in the last thirty years. But, no, looks like he was asleep at the wheel the whole time, coasting towards becoming the most respected setter in the world without ever bothering to even try the bleeding obvious.

To be even more controversial, for me coordination boulders are by far the most interesting development in climbing in my lifetime. Pretty much everything else has progressed in a predictable manner whereas this seems to genuinely open up new possibilities. Whether or not it resembles 'real' climbing remains go be seen. But consider this: when I first tried climbing indoors I was put off by two things. Firstly, it was indoors. Secondly, it barely resembled climbing on rock. In the early days there was a lot of effort made to recess holds whereas now we just accept every climb is set with a series of generally massive chickenheads. This fundamentally changes how you climb. But even more marked was the inability to make subtle footholds. Little progress has been made, you can still mostly climb in trainers indoors unless you need to heelhook. What inddors could replicate was a certain style of steep positive climbing. This initiated a feedback loop whereby the hardest climbs outdoors resembled those that could be most easily trained indoors. It's been great to see rock climbing start to break away form this style more in the last decade, but the tail also wags the dog whereby people can be by far the best climber by grade whilst being frankly embarrassing on many styles thatbare less easily replicated indoors.

I think we will see more coordination style problems outdoors. One significant barrier is probably the extra matting required to make attempts viable, but I'm far from convinced that rock does not lend itself to the movement. Fashion will drive it too, the problem with tiny holds on steep rock was it was always going to end in stretch-midget waifs being the best. But progress has been made, we've at least abandoned the belief that climbing static is somehow superior to slapping.

[Paul B]

You should come to BoulderUK where Vickers loves a new school pebble dual-texture shinner. I'll happily drink coffee and watch you try those problems in your trainers.

[Steve R]

To be even more controversial, for me coordination boulders are by far the most interesting development in climbing in my lifetime. Pretty much everything else has progressed in a predictable manner whereas this seems to genuinely open up new possibilities. Whether or not it resembles 'real' climbing remains go be seen. But consider this: when I first tried climbing indoors I was put off by two things. Firstly, it was indoors. Secondly, it barely resembled climbing on rock. In the early days there was a lot of effort made to recess holds whereas now we just accept every climb is set with a series of generally massive chickenheads. This fundamentally changes how you climb. But even more marked was the inability to make subtle footholds. Little progress has been made, you can still mostly climb in trainers indoors unless you need to heelhook. What inddors could replicate was a certain style of steep positive climbing. This initiated a feedback loop whereby the hardest climbs outdoors resembled those that could be most easily trained indoors. It's been great to see rock climbing start to break away form this style more in the last decade, but the tail also wags the dog whereby people can be by far the best climber by grade whilst being frankly embarrassing on many styles thatbare less easily replicated indoors.

This makes me want to ask two things.  (i) Do you actually watch all the comps?  To the knowledgable sports fan, runny, jumpy problems get pretty boring pretty quickly.  (ii) Do you ever climb indoors?

I think we will see more coordination style problems outdoors. One significant barrier is probably the extra matting required to make attempts viable, but I'm far from convinced that rock does not lend itself to the movement.

Doubtful on this.  The chance of nature producing rock with holds the necessary angle, size, friction, orientation and distances apart to force coordination problems must be vanishingly small.  Also has to be close to the ground and have some kind of landing.... One for the outdoor boulder parks?

[remus]

I think we will see more coordination style problems outdoors. One significant barrier is probably the extra matting required to make attempts viable, but I'm far from convinced that rock does not lend itself to the movement.

Doubtful on this.  The chance of nature producing rock with holds the necessary angle, size, friction, orientation and distances apart to force coordination problems must be vanishingly small.  Also has to be close to the ground and have some kind of landing.... One for the outdoor boulder parks?

I agree with JB here. Almost by definition, people climb stuff and find beta that suit their strengths. If you're strong at ratting on little crimps you kinda don't 'see' problems with big jumps and coordination moves because they don't even register. If you're a young comp wad bought up on a diet of jumping around then you'll find jumpy coordination problems outside, as that's what climbing is to them.

[Fiend]

You should come to BoulderUK where Vickers loves a new school pebble dual-texture shinner. I'll happily drink coffee and watch you try those problems in your trainers.

Can you get me a strong cappucino made with oatmilk please, PB. Ta.

[Bonjoy]

I lean more towards what JB is saying on this (except for the nonsense about most indoor probs being doable in trainers). I’m massively impressed by the coordination style stuff that climbers have got good at as a direct result of competition bouldering. I’m blown away by the physical and mental agility demonstrated by folk like Max Milne. It’s right that competition bouldering shouldn’t feel bound at all by the limitations of the moves that are produced on rocks. That said you get some bad or repetitive setting on all styles of problem. From a viewer perspective, the more styles, angles and hold types the better imo. I do think there are certain types of climbing (e.g. big roofs, compression prows, proper aretes) that are underrepresent in comps but I imagine it's largely down to the limitations of the wall structures that can be practically used and the difficulty of filming pure roofs etc. I think we’re probably getting towards the end of an initial novelty period for coordination type setting and comps may now shift a bit towards a greater variety of styles anyway.
As for coordination problems outside. I don’t see many possibilities and I do look and have more of an eye for this than I used to. A lot of variables have to coincide for these moves to be produced. There are a few out there for sure and more to be found though. Of all the places I’ve climbed I think Castle Hill has the most potential in this style.