[abarro81]

I don't know, sounds exactly like being pumped and making the wrong call when eyeballing two options at the chains! Although I'm thinking of route climbing here, might not work so well in bouldering, and in route climbing it could become a nightmare for scoring (you climb the whole sequence differently to how it was intended and get 0 points cos you used all the wrong holds  )

[petejh]

All this discussion about the bouldering format says to me is what everybody already knows to be true - bouldering is a shit spectator sport for general public consumption, even though we enjoy watching it. Lead climbing is quite a good spectator sport (and so unfortunately is speed). 

I predict bouldering won't be in the olympics by 2028, or if it is then it will end up being the least-watched of the three events. Saying that there are plenty of other sports in the olympics that make poor events for a general TV audience  - dressage, race walking etc.

[User deactivated.]

success is largely down to how quickly you can learn a contrived movement.

Good post. This bit stuck out for me; this is just bouldering, or indeed climbing in general though surely? I can do without the jumps and stuff but I can see why they're useful for setters. I think its too simplistic to call for setting that reflects outdoor climbing as they would all just mince those problems, as Muenchener said.

Consider a comp boulder problem that resembles Jade in Colorado. Ondra flashed it, Aidan did it in a couple of goes, others have taken longer I think. Seems like a perfect difficulty to split a field of competitors.

And to others who have mentioned entertaining spectators, do any non climbers really sit and watch world cups with any regularity? Im completely obsessed with climbing but i still find competitions a boring watch, usually. If we just need to entertain people at the Olympics once every 4 years, why change our sport to satisfy others? Do other sports do this?

[edshakey]

Hmm I defo get where you're coming from Remus, think I was imagining it in the way that Barrows described but maybe having Olympics medals decided by that method is not quite the same as just falling off at the crag and then having another go in 15 mins anyway.

If it's reading rock you want though, maybe we need to merge the Artificial Boulders thread in here, get the climbers on some real rock blasted out of a Llyn peninsula quarry specially for the comp. I imagine the IFSC budget would cover it now they've got Eurosport on their side 

[Dexter]

success is largely down to how quickly you can learn a contrived movement.

Good post. This bit stuck out for me; this is just bouldering, or indeed climbing in general though surely? I can do without the jumps and stuff but I can see why they're useful for setters. I think its too simplistic to call for setting that reflects outdoor climbing as they would all just mince those problems, as Muenchener said.

Consider a comp boulder problem that resembles Jade in Colorado. Ondra flashed it, Aidan did it in a couple of goes, others have taken longer I think. Seems like a perfect difficulty to split a field of competitors.

And to others who have mentioned entertaining spectators, do any non climbers really sit and watch world cups with any regularity? Im completely obsessed with climbing but i still find competitions a boring watch, usually. If we just need to entertain people at the Olympics once every 4 years, why change our sport to satisfy others? Do other sports do this?

Maybe part of the problem is that the setters just aren't at the same strength level to make an equivalent. Not to discredit them but they're just not quite on this level so it's very hard to differentiate these marginal differences. Do we need some outdoor wads as professional testers for outdoor style problems.

[Johnny Brown]

success is largely down to how quickly you can learn a contrived movement.

I mean this is exactly what you want to test isn't it? We can delete 'contrived' because the whole point of route-setting is to contrive movement, it is all contrived.

As much as many people (on the evidence of this thread) would like bouldering to basically be a test of finger strength and dieting on a sequence anyone could read, the reality is it about solving problems. Having to decipher and deliver a complex body movement is exactly what the sub-sport is about.

[teestub]

Maybe part of the problem is that the setters just aren't at the same strength level to make an equivalent. Not to discredit them but they're just not quite on this level so it's very hard to differentiate these marginal differences. Do we need some outdoor wads as professional testers for outdoor style problems.

It’s not just the overall level of difficulty either, the setters have to moderate the difficulty to account for the competitors having already done the qualis and semis (and potentially more if it’s a combined event), the weather conditions and any change in that since they set the problems, and who is turning up for that particular competition.

I don’t envy them the job at all, but when it does go right it’s fucking awesome. Won’t forget Kokoro smashing that pinch boulder and making everyone else look pedestrian for a while (26:30 here)

[mr chaz]

Maybe if we want to replicate outdoors a bit more, the problems should be ultimately more 'basic' but with a bunch of decoy holds amongst the good ones, all just as chalked as each other. I can imagine that, with a new hold set that competitors haven't seen before, this would cause a fair few attempts for some people, while some might get up quickly. A more meaningful separation than parkour?

I'm all for making boulder comps more realistic, but I'd start with the landings. Get rid of the indoor crash matting and replace with talus, wet sloping grass, font style sand pits, tick infested heathland, etc. Competitors to provide their own bouldering pads, limited to what they can carry from their accommodation.

[Rocksteady]

If we just need to entertain people at the Olympics once every 4 years, why change our sport to satisfy others? Do other sports do this?

Yes, one I know a bit about is judo. The competition rules for judo now are extremely different to those I grew up with and trained as a kid.
The sport judo governing body took out leg-grab techniques for fear that it was perceived by spectators as too similar to freestyle and greco-roman wrestling, and therefore at risk of elimination as a separate Olympic sport. They changed grip-fighting and ground-fighting rules to make it look more flashy to spectators.

Controversial as some of the rules, particularly with leg-grabs being lost, make it a less effective martial art for self-defence in a lot of judokas opinions.
The counter argument is that the techniques are still in the canon and you can still train them if you want. But with most clubs being competition-focused and leg-grabs getting you an immediate disqualification, the amount of training you do on these techniques is naturally minimized.
The same could become true of comp bouldering I suppose, if the competitor has to spend most of their time training coordination over fingers they will be less effective outside.

[crimpinainteasy]

success is largely down to how quickly you can learn a contrived movement.

Good post. This bit stuck out for me; this is just bouldering, or indeed climbing in general though surely? I can do without the jumps and stuff but I can see why they're useful for setters. I think its too simplistic to call for setting that reflects outdoor climbing as they would all just mince those problems, as Muenchener said.

Consider a comp boulder problem that resembles Jade in Colorado. Ondra flashed it, Aidan did it in a couple of goes, others have taken longer I think. Seems like a perfect difficulty to split a field of competitors.

And to others who have mentioned entertaining spectators, do any non climbers really sit and watch world cups with any regularity? Im completely obsessed with climbing but i still find competitions a boring watch, usually. If we just need to entertain people at the Olympics once every 4 years, why change our sport to satisfy others? Do other sports do this?

Maybe part of the problem is that the setters just aren't at the same strength level to make an equivalent. Not to discredit them but they're just not quite on this level so it's very hard to differentiate these marginal differences. Do we need some outdoor wads as professional testers for outdoor style problems.

I think this is a big part of the issue. Not too many world class setters who are still climbing at the elite level IE v15+ to set and v14 and harder problems.

[Percy B]

I think Pete's point is very true. With the current comp format, bouldering will slowly disappear from the comp world. Too much time has been taken trying to fix a fundamentally flawed format, and the way these problems are being 'fixed' is not doing the sport any good - scoring, number of problems, time allowance, etc. All the current fixes are about trying to adapt boulder comps to make them work on TV, but the reality is it just doesn't really work. We' seem to be trying to polish a turd...

I don't know what the answer is, but I am motivated to try some new ideas, as I've spent a large proportion of my professional life setting boulder comps, and the thought of our new Olympic status bringing about the demise of something I think has genuine appeal and value doesn't feel right.

Johnny is right as he always is, that all climbing movement is contrived. I was trying to say that a lot of dynamic coordination movement in modern comps bears no relation to what happens in bouldering in the real world. It's a new style of movement that is strictly the domain of comp athletes, and was created by setters to achieve their goals (to create a clear ranking) in an easy and viewer friendly manner.
Before anybody chimes in with the "Johnny Dawes has been doing dynamic coordination for years" comment, no he hasn't. He did used to bounce about a lot, the diminutive little tinker, but Johnny has never done any coordination jumps like current World Cup athletes do at the drop of a hat. The level difficulty is absolutely other worldly compared to what Johnny could do back in the day. Dawes might have been a visionary, but the stuff you see in modern comps is way more difficult. He'd still kick all their arses at doing dangerous stuff one handed though (probably...)

The change in style of comp boulders from traditional climbing style to a more parcour style has been a worry for the IFSC - they don't want the sport to evolve until it's more like other sports than bouldering. Now all the athletes have the new dynamic coordination style dialled in, it becomes a less effective tool for the setters and they will probably stop using it and find something else. I've always found a hand jam, or a spot of chimneying sorts the wheat from the chaff......

[Percy B]

Just saw the other point - there are a lot of IFSC setters who climb V14, or 9a routes. Not me obviously - I'm strictly VS (I bring experience to setting teams, and stupidity). All 3 IFSC setters who I worked in Tokyo with have climbed minimum Font 8b regularly. My Japanese helper had climbed V15.

[Muenchener]

If we just need to entertain people at the Olympics once every 4 years, why change our sport to satisfy others? Do other sports do this?

Yes, one I know a bit about is judo. The competition rules for judo now are extremely different to those I grew up with and trained as a kid.
The sport judo governing body took out leg-grab techniques for fear that it was perceived by spectators as too similar to freestyle and greco-roman wrestling, and therefore at risk of elimination as a separate Olympic sport. They changed grip-fighting and ground-fighting rules to make it look more flashy to spectators.

Well they failed then. I watched some olympic judo, and while I assume there was a lot going on, most of it was invisible to the ignorant (me). It was two blokes tagging each other carefully for a while, then they would hug, then one of them might fall over.

Don't get me wrong, I know how impressive these guys are - but if you don't understand the nuances it's about as exciting to watch as Ai Mori shaking out on a microscopic nubbin.

[Nemo]

"I consider a major change in the way boulder comps work is long overdue. - Percy B"

Good to hear there's others who'd like to see changes.  And obviously I get that getting a good show, splitting the pack etc is challenging regardless of how problems are set.

"success is largely down to how quickly you can learn a contrived movement - Percy B"

Indeed.  A lot of the jumping around problems seem like success doesn't have a lot to do with ability.  It often seems very random who fits the problem best / often very height dependent jumping into toe hooks, who happens to have practiced that exact type of jump previously etc.

"I was trying to say that a lot of dynamic coordination movement in modern comps bears no relation to what happens in bouldering in the real world. It's a new style of movement that is strictly the domain of comp athletes - Percy B"

Exactly.

"I think its too simplistic to call for setting that reflects outdoor climbing as they would all just mince those problems - spidermonkey09"

Well, make them harder then.

"Consider a comp boulder problem that resembles Jade in Colorado. Ondra flashed it, Aidan did it in a couple of goes, others have taken longer I think. Seems like a perfect difficulty to split a field of competitors. - LiamHutch89"

Exactly.

"problems that display athletes inhuman 'board strength' are also boring to watch if you are not a bouldering geek (and 99.9% of the new viewing audience are not)  - Percy B"

I would question this.  From an admittedly fairly small sample of people I know who watch bouldering comps who aren't really climbers (there's a surprising number at my work though), they are often most impressed by people climbing really steep stuff, roofs, pulling on obviously tiny holds etc.  Whereas a lot of the problems jumping around on big sloping volumes they often aren't as impressed by, as to the uninitiated a lot of the volumes often just look like jugs.
Random aside, but one thing that invariably creates amazement in non climbers is people pulling on tiny pockets.  I get that presumably this kind of thing is largely not set to avoid injury, but perhaps even some dead easy moves on monos would create a better show than a lot more jumping around.  Generally though I'd be arguing for - make it steeper, make the holds smaller, still keen to see lots of technical stuff though, just technical in ways that reflect hard outdoor bouldering.

"One thing I also find odd is that comps and increasingly indoor walls in general focus so much on big volume holds. I get that they allow changes in angle etc. but would it not be more impressive to see someone getting up an apparently blank piece of wall? - Dexter"

Agreed. 

"but are also nearly impossible to set at the right level nowadays. - Percy B"

Again, I'm skeptical.  It might require more setters who are capable of and used to regularly climbing and setting 8B+ problems.  But even on a totally basic crimp ladder, I can't imagine it would take too much time to figure out what the best in the world can handle, and then take it down a few notches at the start of the problem, and build up the difficulty.

"Do we need some outdoor wads as professional testers for outdoor style problems."

Yes, definitely.

"Maybe part of the problem is that the setters just aren't at the same strength level to make an equivalent. - Dexter"

I suspect this is part of the problem.  It may be that the setters have climbed 8B+, but have they climbed 8B+ regularly and recently in lots of different styles. I think if you regularly got Dave Graham or someone of that level and experience outdoors to turn up and help set a comp, or at least be there to tweak something that professional setters have set, the outcome might be rather different.  Admittedly it might cost a fair bit to get them there.  (And of course it may be any one particular good outdoor climber is terrible at setting, but there will certainly be some that aren't). 

"As much as many people (on the evidence of this thread) would like bouldering to basically be a test of finger strength and dieting on a sequence anyone could read - JB"

I'm not suggesting that in the slightest.  There's lots of hard outdoor bouldering that is very complex and technical.  Not against complex and technical problems in comps in the slightest.  I'm against setting that focuses on things that bouderers never do outdoors, and in particular stuff that requires a lot of specific training that has no relevance to anyone who boulders outdoors.

"do any non climbers really sit and watch world cups with any regularity? - LiamHutch89"

If various random people at my work are anything to go by, then yes, definitely.  There's a guy in my 6 man team who knows every comp result back to the 90s in both lead and bouldering and who's climbing experience is to have gone to a wall a couple of times with some mates. 

"trying to adapt boulder comps to make them work on TV, but the reality is it just doesn't really work."

Again, not sure I agree.  I think it works fine on TV - certainly as well or better than plenty of other sports.

"I've always found a hand jam, or a spot of chimneying sorts the wheat from the chaff"

Again, this is the stuff I despise in comps.  It's just a test of who's had a tiny bit of experience of doing some trad climbing, vs actually testing who is the best boulderer.
It might be funny etc watching 8C boulderers fail on somthing you'd find on an 5.9 in Yosemite, but it turns boulder comps into a joke. 
Fine for entertaining fun local comps.  Not so fine for world cups.

"The new IFSC format with 2 zones is another step towards making scoring easier to understand while missing the point of the bouldering. 2 zones means 2 scoring points on each climb, making it even more like lead.... Bouldering is about getting to the top - not dropping off when you've scored enough points. - Percy B"

Perhaps along with the setting style this is one of the fundamental problems.
I guess I think exactly the opposite.
ie: IMO, it needs to go a lot further.  Make every hold a point, with an additional x points for a top.
Setters are always going to have a completely impossible task if they are aiming for getting one person on top of the boulder and splitting everyone else with one or two zones.
To me at least, everyone just needs to accept that this is unrealistic, set problems that get progressively harder, with a point gained for every hold gained, then I suspect a lot of the problems the setters have been having would go away.
I don't think that is "missing the point of bouldering" at all.  What I care way more about is the moves they are climbing.  And as long as the pack is split successfully, I don't think most people are going to be upset that there isn't always the satisfaction of seeing a top.  What's much less satisfying is where there's one silly trick move that they entire pack fails on.

[GraemeA]

Well I think that might be a first for UK climbing, someone’s PR person responding on their behalf!

Although Jerry probably got there first in the ‘90’s 😄

Jerry is such a total legend, he almost certainly wouldn't have needed any additional PR or Marketing support!

Jerry was managed by a guy called Andy Brown, as was John Dunne I think

[abarro81]

I couldn't disagree more on cracks (I hate them, but there's no reason whatsoever why they shouldn't be in comps - they're hardly a party trick!). And I find it funny watching people tell setters that it's easy to set things that are just the right difficulty in any style. But I do agree that having a more points-based system might solve some of the issues and allow bouldering comps to resemble outdoor bouldering a bit more, which would be cool.

[GraemeA]

Maybe if we want to replicate outdoors a bit more, the problems should be ultimately more 'basic' but with a bunch of decoy holds amongst the good ones,

Many moons ago me and Chris Plant got someone to make us a hold that looked like a fish. We put it on one of the routes at a BICC (Rockface in Birmingham). A couple of people asked us what it was there for, the answer being (or course), "oh that's just a red herring"

[Nemo]

"I find it funny watching people tell setters that it's easy to set things that are just the right difficulty in any style - abarro81"

Don't think anyone is saying that for a second.  I certainly wasn't.
Getting the right level of difficulty is clearly desperate.
I just don't think that it's any more desperate to set problems of the correct level in a more outdoor style.
As you say though, I think a more points based system would certainly help.

But it's always going to be difficult to work out how knackered people are likely to be in the finals, to try to take into account the difference in temperature / conditions between when you're setting vs the actual comp etc etc etc.
Just think if people like Percy are considering changes in formats for the future, it's worth people chipping in with thoughts on how to improve things.

[petejh]

It might sound weird but I think much of what's being talked about could be achieved by setting more realistic styles of problem and then having comp walls that can be adjusted for angle mid-competition with hydraulics. Adjusting a wall angle mid-comp to make the same problem steeper is quite a visual thing an audience can understand and changes a problem a lot by one quick adjustment. Something a bit too easy in the qualification round? Make it 10 degrees steeper.


*yes it's unrealistic to change the angle, unless you boulder a lot on a glacier.

[Bradders]

On the topic of angle; is part of the problem that the competition walls just aren't that steep? If I think of the most difficult boulder problems in the world, they're almost universally steeply overhanging, whereas it at least looks as though the comp walls rarely go beyond c. 40'?

I had the same thought as Liam with this; surely the problems need to be harder? 8B regularly gets flashed nowadays, so accounting for the build up of fatigue etc. perhaps the problems should be minimum 8A at World Cup level. A final of 4x 8B boulders would surely separate the field out regardless of their style.

[abarro81]

Not when everyone's tired and no-one gets any tops... Or you slightly misjudge and it's a final of 4x8B+

I can see why it's a lot easier to use problems that are easy to fall off rather than problems that are hard per se to separate a field.. I'm slightly surprised that some seems to think otherwise

[mrjonathanr]

Many moons ago me and Chris Plant got someone to make us a hold that looked like a fish. We put it on one of the routes at a BICC (Rockface in Birmingham). A couple of people asked us what it was there for, the answer being (or course), "oh that's just a red herring"

I thought it was so no one could knock Jerry off his perch.

[teestub]

Many moons ago me and Chris Plant got someone to make us a hold that looked like a fish. We put it on one of the routes at a BICC (Rockface in Birmingham). A couple of people asked us what it was there for, the answer being (or course), "oh that's just a red herring"

I thought it was so no one could knock Jerry off his perch.

Making people flounder on the route.

[mrjonathanr]

That put them in their plaice

[Scouse D]

Glad it was a herring, you wouldn't want a dab