[Bonjoy]

Personally I'm in favour of building high quality outdoor boulder parks in cities, like Shoreditch but bigger, to bring outdoor bouldering to the people.

This.
I've been boring people about this idea for years. I think these would be amazing if someone with a bit of money and vision would ever get round to building one. They don't have to be for city parks only. I think they'd work well in cleared areas of forestry plantations, like the ones currently used for mountain bike trails. Artificial fonts, what's not to like. There's no barriers to building outdoor permanent boulders with lines as good or better than real rock, other than money and imagination. If there's anyone out there with a big bag of the former, I'd be happy to supply the latter.

[Johnny Brown]

How many artificial boulders are there in Sheffield? At least 5, not counting kids? Only the Heeley one seems to get used though, so seems like design has a way to go, or maybe wrong location. Would they be mobbed in Dalston?

On this basis the Shoreditch model might be the one to copy, just quarry massive lumps of granite. The cost would be 90% transport.

[Bonjoy]

That's the imagination barrier. Current boulders in Sheffield aim to provide multiple overlapping ways up, catering for all abilities, all on a single boulder. Not a recipe for Brad Pitesque unique lines. More a recipe for low grade versions of Pinches Wall. They totally lack the inspirational value of stand-alone lines. As such they're a poor halfway between current indoor climbing and bouldering on rock, having the downsides of both and the upsides of neither.

[SA Chris]

https://www.climbscotland.net/where-to-go/get-outdoors/cuningar-loop-boulders

Like this?

[Bonjoy]

The Sheaf (the newer Heeley one) boulder is the best of a bad lot and the one which sees the most use. Because the council gave the builders a bit more scope to cater for actual climbers. The others are aimed largely at non climbers, who it turns out don't actually climb, who knew.
But even the Sheaf boulder put too little emphasis on hold type number and orientation, instead putting effort into macro design and leaving the detail to the construction team.

[Bonjoy]

https://www.climbscotland.net/where-to-go/get-outdoors/cuningar-loop-boulders

Like this?

Still looks poorly designed and lacking the aesthetic value of real rock.
Large blocks of natural stone with some sculpting, like the Shoreditch boulder are great, but doubtless extremely expensive compared to steel frame and spray con.

[mrjonathanr]

Get Squawk to make a bunch of outdoor Broughtons.

[SA Chris]

https://www.climbscotland.net/where-to-go/get-outdoors/cuningar-loop-boulders

Like this?

Still looks poorly designed and lacking the aesthetic value of real rock.
Large blocks of natural stone with some sculpting, like the Shoreditch boulder are great, but doubtless extremely expensive compared to steel frame and spray con.

And likely to polish up in no time? They Cunningar ones are actually a lot more fun to climb on than they look, they had to strike a balance between materials and longevity and made something with tolerable roughness that seems to wear pretty well (although I've not been for about 4 years). 

[Falling Down]

I’d be _well_ keen on someone dropping  a dozen or so big granite blocks in Regents/Hyde/Queens Park, Hampstead Heath, Wormwood Scrubs etc. It’s so dry down here you could climb outside nearly every day of the year.

[petejh]

Bonjoy what would the investment case be for a bunch of large granite boulders to be purchased from Trefor quarry (finest grained granite outside of some Scottish islands, still used for curling stones) and dumped in city centre parks, for you to chisel away at? Or would it be purely altruistic to keep you in new problems?

[tomtom]

I’d be _well_ keen on someone dropping  a dozen or so big granite blocks in Regents/Hyde/Queens Park, Hampstead Heath, Wormwood Scrubs etc. It’s so dry down here you could climb outside nearly every day of the year.

Unfortunately - the logistics of this are really hard/expensive. Having worked with people who dump large rocks in rivers to stop their banks eroding (etc..) once you get above 1m by 1m by 1m it all starts getting really expensive. Such a rock will weigh 2-3 tonnes - which is do-able with regular flat bed artic and a JCB etc..

If you wanted a decent sized bouldering boulder. You're probably looking at something 3 by 3 by 3m - which is 27m3 (assuming 2.5 tonnes per m3) is 67 tonnes. Even if smaller you're looking at north of 40t. Not transportable via regular road networks - and would need a very special crane to get it into place. I guess you could slice it into bits - but wouldn't be a nice solution. If you look at actual stone blocks as sculptures/monuments/things outside buildings - they only ever go up to a certain size...

Hence - fibreglass/sprayed concrete options etc..

[galpinos]

I’d be _well_ keen on someone dropping  a dozen or so big granite blocks in Regents/Hyde/Queens Park, Hampstead Heath, Wormwood Scrubs etc. It’s so dry down here you could climb outside nearly every day of the year.

Unfortunately - the logistics of this are really hard/expensive. Having worked with people who dump large rocks in rivers to stop their banks eroding (etc..) once you get above 1m by 1m by 1m it all starts getting really expensive. Such a rock will weigh 2-3 tonnes - which is do-able with regular flat bed artic and a JCB etc..

If you wanted a decent sized bouldering boulder. You're probably looking at something 3 by 3 by 3m - which is 27m3 (assuming 2.5 tonnes per m3) is 67 tonnes. Even if smaller you're looking at north of 40t. Not transportable via regular road networks - and would need a very special crane to get it into place. I guess you could slice it into bits - but wouldn't be a nice solution. If you look at actual stone blocks as sculptures/monuments/things outside buildings - they only ever go up to a certain size...

Hence - fibreglass/sprayed concrete options etc..

Tomtom, what's the issue with a relatively small weight on normal roads? I am currently intending to move things along the normal road network and have been given a max weight of 500t. Is it just cost?

Edit: Good to see you back Tom!

[petejh]

44 tons the maximum total weight (load & vehicle) allowed on UK roads, unless special circumstances. According to this: https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/hgv-maximum-weights/hgv-maximum-weights


That scuppers the granite boulders from Trefor quarry idea 

[Teaboy]

If only we knew who the contractors were that built Avebury, it’s the best mid grade bouldering venue I’ve been to in the UK so another one of them without the nimbyism would be perfect!

[SA Chris]

I love how this has wandered from Bosi to moving big Blocks.

[galpinos]

44 tons the maximum total weight (load & vehicle) allowed on UK roads, unless special circumstances. According to this: https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/hgv-maximum-weights/hgv-maximum-weights

Is that not the limit allowed on a standard HGV though, not the road limit?

[teestub]

Nice film about the London ones, reading around seems to suggest they are about 60 tonnes.

https://www.peeruk.org/chrisdorleybrownjohnfrankland/

[jwi]

I’d be _well_ keen on someone dropping  a dozen or so big granite blocks in Regents/Hyde/Queens Park, Hampstead Heath, Wormwood Scrubs etc. It’s so dry down here you could climb outside nearly every day of the year.

Unfortunately - the logistics of this are really hard/expensive. Having worked with people who dump large rocks in rivers to stop their banks eroding (etc..) once you get above 1m by 1m by 1m it all starts getting really expensive. Such a rock will weigh 2-3 tonnes - which is do-able with regular flat bed artic and a JCB etc..

If you wanted a decent sized bouldering boulder. You're probably looking at something 3 by 3 by 3m - which is 27m3 (assuming 2.5 tonnes per m3) is 67 tonnes. Even if smaller you're looking at north of 40t. Not transportable via regular road networks - and would need a very special crane to get it into place. I guess you could slice it into bits - but wouldn't be a nice solution. If you look at actual stone blocks as sculptures/monuments/things outside buildings - they only ever go up to a certain size...

Hence - fibreglass/sprayed concrete options etc..

I looked into the weights of a gneiss boulder when we wanted to tilt an erratic boulder standing on flat rock situated close to downtown where I used to live ten years ago. We had already done all the obvious problems on the steep side and thought if we jack it up so it is about ten degrees steeper and pour some concrete under the other side, they would become about one grade harder. Turns out that the hydraulic jacks needed to flip a boulder are really expensive to rent. So it came to nothing, alas.

[remus]

I’d be _well_ keen on someone dropping  a dozen or so big granite blocks in Regents/Hyde/Queens Park, Hampstead Heath, Wormwood Scrubs etc. It’s so dry down here you could climb outside nearly every day of the year.

Unfortunately - the logistics of this are really hard/expensive. Having worked with people who dump large rocks in rivers to stop their banks eroding (etc..) once you get above 1m by 1m by 1m it all starts getting really expensive. Such a rock will weigh 2-3 tonnes - which is do-able with regular flat bed artic and a JCB etc..

If you wanted a decent sized bouldering boulder. You're probably looking at something 3 by 3 by 3m - which is 27m3 (assuming 2.5 tonnes per m3) is 67 tonnes. Even if smaller you're looking at north of 40t. Not transportable via regular road networks - and would need a very special crane to get it into place. I guess you could slice it into bits - but wouldn't be a nice solution. If you look at actual stone blocks as sculptures/monuments/things outside buildings - they only ever go up to a certain size...

Hence - fibreglass/sprayed concrete options etc..

I looked into the weights of a gneiss boulder when we wanted to tilt an erratic boulder standing on flat rock situated close to downtown where I used to live ten years ago. We had already done all the obvious problems on the steep side and thought if we jack it up so it is about ten degrees steeper and pour some concrete under the other side, they would become about one grade harder. Turns out that the hydraulic jacks needed to flip a boulder are really expensive to rent. So it came to nothing, alas.

That's interesting, I wonder what it is that makes them expensive? I know hydraulic presses in machine shops routinely go up to 100s of tons so presumably the components aren't super expensive. Maybe it's the form factor/logistics you need for usage out in the wild?

[petejh]

44 tons the maximum total weight (load & vehicle) allowed on UK roads, unless special circumstances. According to this: https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/hgv-maximum-weights/hgv-maximum-weights

Is that not the limit allowed on a standard HGV though, not the road limit?

Appears to be yeah. I guess you'd need to know the max weight limit of the weakest section of any proposed road route from quarry to destination.
Possibly the weakest part would be any bridges on route. Bridge max weights for county of Warwickshire (I'm sure we al know these off top of our heads but for those who've forgotten): https://data.gov.uk/dataset/3fc40755-1559-4046-841c-69f4f891d69a/bridge-weight-limits

Then all we'd need are a few quotations:
2 of 3mx3mx3m blocks from a.n.quarry
Transport from quarry to destination
Heavy lift crane hire plus banksman, per day (2 days)
Bonjoy's chiselling services per day

Wonder if it'd come in under £100k...

[teestub]

This sent me down a rabbit hole! Looks like the heaviest item moved in the UK was a transformer for Cottam that was 600 tonnes and the transporter travelled at 4mph. Looks like barges are regularly used for stuff >100 tonnes, so maybe you’d be better shipping the boulders down the Thames and distributing them in riverside parks!

[shurt]

I love this idea.
I've actually got a deal with a friend of mine who's a Stonemason if I win the lottery. He's going to be tasked to fill part of my garden with a variety of boulders, different rock types etc.
It's good to dream, we've talked about it at length!!!

[remus]

Limestone blocs would solve a lot of these transport issues. Simply blast the block in to small, manageable pieces, transport at your leisure then rebuild them on location with huge quantities of sika. Et voila, a replica of the tor in your location of choice.

[casa]

We fairly regularly move 40ish Tonne steel loads (unofficially). A lowloader from Cardiff to London is circa £1500.00 per trip. A 100T crane you can get for approx £1000.00/day (crane size will depend on how close you can set up to where u need to be be).

[SA Chris]

This sent me down a rabbit hole! Looks like the heaviest item moved in the UK was a transformer

Must have been Omega Supreme, Optimus Prime is only the size or an artic.

[SA Chris]

Limestone blocs would solve a lot of these transport issues. Simply blast the block in to small, manageable pieces, then mix with tar and use on drive.

Fixed.

[Dexter]

Limestone blocs would solve a lot of these transport issues. Simply blast the block in to small, manageable pieces, transport at your leisure then rebuild them on location with huge quantities of sika. Et voila, a replica of the tor in your location of choice.

Surely the easier option here would be to break down the limestone into small sizes roughly equal to handholds and footholds, then attach them to a frame build of cheaper lighter materials such as wood and metal...
you could even put something like this into a warehouse so it stays dry and if you wanted to go all out you could serve coffee and cake and teach kids classes.

[SA Chris]

or you could replace the limestone pieces with custom shapes made of some mouldable, wear resistant material.

Actually sounds shit, never catch on.

[mrjonathanr]

Surely the easier option here would be to break down the limestone into small sizes roughly equal to handholds and footholds, then attach them to a frame build of cheaper lighter materials such as wood and metal...

and spray on resin and you’d have Bendcrete’s Broughton wall. The only wall that ever felt like a crag.

[seankenny]

Wonder if it'd come in under £100k...

Thanks for the cost breakdown. This has to be small beer for a London local authority. We got a new skatepark in my local park, annoyingly I can’t find any figures for its cost but I did find a suggestion for rebuilding a skate facility at a leisure centre that’s being refurbished. That came in at £375k so a couple of boulders - or a Broughton style structure - would be perfectly reasonable. And as FD says, it is very dry down here.

[petejh]

Still haven't factored in Bonjoy's problem-sculpting fees (maybe get a comparison quote from MEdwards as its granite that needs chipping), plus my 'local fixer' middleman transaction fee for arranging purchase of suitable boulders from the guys who own the Trefor quarry. But yeah it looks like it should be doable for well under £100k per location in theory.

[A Jooser]

Just to provide some validation to the remarkably accurate, back-of-an-envelope guesstimates on this thread I have some *FACTS*  to share with the group...

According to the Evening Standard (To boulderly go... in the name of art (19 Aug 2008)) the 'two 12ft high granite boulders', 'each weighing up to 85 tonnes', installed in Shoreditch Park and Mabley Green were 'funded with £100,000 from Deutsche Bank plus contributions from Hackney council and the Shoreditch Trust'. Figure does not include raw material as: "The boulders were donated by Carnsew quarry near Falmouth."

Further, there's 'The Seed', Peter Randall-Page's 13ft (4m) high, 70 tonne sculpture which was transported by lorry from De Lank Quarry on Bodmin Moor to its home at the Eden Project in 2007.

https://youtu.be/tU0boVX6b4k?t=15

Crane-logistics geeks can read all about it in Cranes Today where they'll learn the 3x3x3m-ish lump of rock was actually 67 tonnes -  tomtom, nice to see you here again.  It was 'whittled down' over four years from a 167 tonne quarried block.

Really, check out the artist and his work, it's amazing what can be achieved.


https://www.peterrandall-page.com/

But even better to show what's possible with imagination, inspiration and a bit of art commission/municipal funding there's the Traoñienn ar Sent (Valley of the Saints) in Brittany.



The 100th sculpture here weighs 5 tons, stands 3.5m (11ft) tall, and is a 'beautiful statue' of St Piran carved by sculptors David Paton and Stephane Rouget out of Carnsew granite in Trenoweth Quarry near Mabe. It was transported from Penryn by traditional sail boat to Brittany where I believe it was taken by horse and cart to its final destination. The Cornish granite saint was then - as legend dictates - given an Irish granite millstone around his neck and secured on its base of Breton granite.

https://youtu.be/Jaeck-RB5No?t=11

I'm with Bonjoy on this, a bit of money and vision is all it would take. £2 million could easily get you a dozen boulders or more put wherever you want. Stick a couple close to each other to get cracks, chimneys, corners; capstones on top. It could be great. 

[Bonjoy]

Bonjoy what would the investment case be for a bunch of large granite boulders to be purchased from Trefor quarry (finest grained granite outside of some Scottish islands, still used for curling stones) and dumped in city centre parks, for you to chisel away at? Or would it be purely altruistic to keep you in new problems?

I've always wondered about Trefor Quarry, the rock sounds amazing. Have any locals checked it out for (in-situ) climbing potential?
Boulder parks would be a hard sell in terms of commercial return. I think it's totally feasible that something of sufficient size and complexity could charge entry, but it would be hard to get something like that built until viability/logistics/popularity were proven on a smaller scale. I guess it could be commercial as part of a larger facility e.g. some sort of hipster version of Centreparcs. I reckon a well made boulder would make an amazing piece of 'live art' in a sculpture park, and you might get commissioning on that basis, at least for a single block.
I do think though that from a cost and practicality point of view the best way forward would be built boulders rather than chiselled monoliths. The current first generation outdoor boulders are not a million miles away from being great, they just need an extra level of design and finish.
I think steel frame and spraycon is fine up to a point, but could the spraycon incorporate a surface mesh which can then be layered over with a textured resin finish?
Even spraycon lines could be greatly improved by pre-designing the problems on paper/CAD prior to applying the concrete, such that the short setting time can be wisely and carefully used, rather than it being a race against time.
Another idea would be to not just rely on trowelling wet concrete to make the hold shapes, but to use pre-made moulds, or shotblast the surface after it's solidified.
Ideally what you want is for the location to have ample space and the construction technique to be fairly cheap, such that you can afford to make pure inescapable lines up boulders. At which point the world is your oyster and you could in theory produce problems as good or better than anything thrown out by nature.

[Andy W]

There was also this one by the same artist John Frankland, back in 2001

https://warwickshireclimbs.weebly.com/compton-verney.html

[edshakey]

Silencing all the milton Keynes haters


https://www.theparkstrust.com/our-work/public-art-in-our-parks/campbell-park-art/gnomon/

[Johnny Brown]

I thought Trefor quarry closed in the sixties? And if it's anything like the microgranite at Ty'n Tywyn you'd struggle to get a block much bigger than a fridge out of it. Shap might be a better bet, right on a motorway too.

Were the lines on the Shoreditch boulder chipped? I got the impression it was just left as is.

[jwi]

I’d be _well_ keen on someone dropping  a dozen or so big granite blocks in Regents/Hyde/Queens Park, Hampstead Heath, Wormwood Scrubs etc. It’s so dry down here you could climb outside nearly every day of the year.

Unfortunately - the logistics of this are really hard/expensive. Having worked with people who dump large rocks in rivers to stop their banks eroding (etc..) once you get above 1m by 1m by 1m it all starts getting really expensive. Such a rock will weigh 2-3 tonnes - which is do-able with regular flat bed artic and a JCB etc..

If you wanted a decent sized bouldering boulder. You're probably looking at something 3 by 3 by 3m - which is 27m3 (assuming 2.5 tonnes per m3) is 67 tonnes. Even if smaller you're looking at north of 40t. Not transportable via regular road networks - and would need a very special crane to get it into place. I guess you could slice it into bits - but wouldn't be a nice solution. If you look at actual stone blocks as sculptures/monuments/things outside buildings - they only ever go up to a certain size...

Hence - fibreglass/sprayed concrete options etc..

I looked into the weights of a gneiss boulder when we wanted to tilt an erratic boulder standing on flat rock situated close to downtown where I used to live ten years ago. We had already done all the obvious problems on the steep side and thought if we jack it up so it is about ten degrees steeper and pour some concrete under the other side, they would become about one grade harder. Turns out that the hydraulic jacks needed to flip a boulder are really expensive to rent. So it came to nothing, alas.

That's interesting, I wonder what it is that makes them expensive? I know hydraulic presses in machine shops routinely go up to 100s of tons so presumably the components aren't super expensive. Maybe it's the form factor/logistics you need for usage out in the wild?

I don't know either, when I worked at the Rönnskär smelter we just went to the depot and requisitioned 20 or 50 ton jacks when needed. They are big and take forever to pump. Checked just now on alibaba and they are not even that expensive. I guess I shouldn't have delegated the acquisition.

[Bonjoy]

I thought Trefor quarry closed in the sixties? And if it's anything like the microgranite at Ty'n Tywyn you'd struggle to get a block much bigger than a fridge out of it.

Google Earth shows boulders up to 5x6m on plan in the quarry and multiple short blocky tiered buttresses which appear worthy of a closer look.

[Andy W]

I thought Trefor quarry closed in the sixties? And if it's anything like the microgranite at Ty'n Tywyn you'd struggle to get a block much bigger than a fridge out of it. Shap might be a better bet, right on a motorway too.

Were the lines on the Shoreditch boulder chipped? I got the impression it was just left as is.

I don't think Frankland was interested in chipping. Have they been chipped since installation? I suspect he never imagined they would become so popular.

[petejh]

Of course I've checked out Trefor. I wouldn't have mentioned it otherwise 

I have four new routes in there - two done, two projects. One a 40+ metre 7b+ thing. The rock is perfect fine-grained granite, beautiful to climb. The approaches to the base of the cliff are chossy. Some of the boulders are huge. The place is run on a very low-key basis by a few guys with a JCB and a pick-up, the templates for the curling stones are lying around and I think they still make them occasionally. It seems like the sort of scene where they'll come in, get a bit of rock with the JCB and make a granite tabletop. Very small scale.

I haven't publicised the routes because it's still a working quarry and they don't want people climbing there - one of them approached me last year while I was bolting and asked me to leave.

It'd be difficult - probably impossible? - to get a 60 ton piece through Trefor village.

[Johnny Brown]

Good knowledge, I should explore one day. Some good pics on urbex websites...

Are the quarries on Gyrn ddu worth a look?

[petejh]

The left-hand quarry (looking from the road) has been developed as a sport crag by some of the A55 pensioner crew, it's detailed in the A55 sport climbs guide. Mostly 6s and the odd 7. Rock is excellent. Pete did a good 7b there. Not a venue you'd go out of your way to visit but worthwhile and a lovely area to hang out. Right-hand quarry I'm unaware of anything but haven't looked.
https://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/crags/tyddyn_hywel_quarry-24747/#maps

[sdm]

Onsite Climbing and Petraholds took some photos/videos of them carving a granite boulder they installed in Canada last year.

Their method is to cut them in to 2 or 3 pieces for easier transport, reassemble them on site, then carve and sand blast the holds.

No idea what the cost is.

I think Petraholds did a series of posts of him shaping the holds but I can't find them, they must have been on a story or taken down.

https://www.instagram.com/p/CSxmoy4DQnE/?utm_medium=copy_link

https://www.instagram.com/p/CTAAy5-AMf5/?utm_medium=copy_link

https://www.instagram.com/p/By25AcojXZu/?utm_medium=copy_link

[fatneck]

That micro-granite, when wave washed as at Porth Howel is amazing to climb on...

[fatneck]

Also, have decided all we need is shrinking technology which could minimise us (and all our kit) to make 50cm high boulders 5m high boulders for a set amount of time. Limitless possibilities in your garden / yarden / park...

[SA Chris]

https://www.imdb.com/title/tt1389072/ (I didn't finish watching it)

[Durbs]

Strictly speaking, you don't actually need the WHOLE boulder, just the faces... So if you could essentially skin it, you could then reconstruct it as a hollow shell attached to a metal frame, which would make it much lighter to transport and position.

In fact you could then do a babushka doll of the same problems for kids > normal adults > lanky bastards right next to each other.

[Fultonius]

Found one going free:



Just need to pick it up from the Leschuax Glacier...  Plenty more where that came from too!

[Percy B]

I have harboured an urge to build a load of nice boulders in some woods for a while now. I almost bought a decent sized bit of Peak District woodland off the national park about 6 years ago with this thought in mind, but got outbid....
A Slovenian friend of mine (the guy who owns Lapis climbing holds) has a limestone boulder in his front garden that he persuaded a local crane and haulage contractor to collect from a local crag and bring to his house. They spent a long time orientating the boulder to give the best problems. I always thought it was bullshit, or the boulder would be tiny, but then went round for a barbecue one evening and was surprised to see he hadn't be exaggerating at all. It was a pretty impressive lump of rock, and has some good problems on it too. Shame it's limestone....

[SA Chris]

Imagine the uproar if someone nicked classic boulders in the dead of night and moved it to a private collection..

[Carliios]

I thought Trefor quarry closed in the sixties? And if it's anything like the microgranite at Ty'n Tywyn you'd struggle to get a block much bigger than a fridge out of it. Shap might be a better bet, right on a motorway too.

Were the lines on the Shoreditch boulder chipped? I got the impression it was just left as is.

I don't think Frankland was interested in chipping. Have they been chipped since installation? I suspect he never imagined they would become so popular.

They weren’t chipped but have shot holes and large holes from where they had to drill to attach it to the crane, other than that I think the holds on it are either natural or a result of when it was blasted out of the quarry. It is quite fragile and lots of holds have broken off, especially when it started seeing more traffic during lockdown.

[chicane]

https://gripped.com/profiles/granite-b-c-boulders-being-shipped-to-calgary-for-climbers/

[GraemeA]

Get Squawk to make a bunch of outdoor Broughtons.

I don't think Squawk had much creative input to Broughton. You would need to get Dave Kenyon, Al Williams and Paul Ingham  for that ;-)

[mrjonathanr]

 I can see a business opportunity with Al for you there!