[teestub]

I think that climbing in the Olympics changes this a lot. You might not remember who wins some competitions here and there but the Olympics medalists for sure.

Remind me - who won the Men’s Olympic gold?

Surely an upset is as, if not more, memorable than a favourite cruising to a win!

[teestub]

…it's an objective view of the sport as a whole, present, past and future.

I’d be fascinated to know how you’ve made this view objective and sidestepped any personal or generational biases that may lead it it becoming subjective!

[Johnny Brown]

The problem with comp wins is it's a constant churn. To make an impact you've got to dominate for years. Not many can or will do that, and you have to be able to perform on cue which many can't. Outdoors not only allows you to go when you're ready, you can make a bigger impact with a single ascent. And more people care. Which of Bosi's comp results compares with Brandenberg gate?

I'm not saying it couldn't happen but it's going to take a helluva personal 'journey' for a comp win to compete with the impact, both in and beyond the sport, of the Dawn Wall First Ascent, or Honnold soloing Freerider for two obvious examples. Honnlove didn't even need to do a new route did he?

I dont think it makes a lot of sense to pretend outdoors is intrinsically better than indoors

From a philosophical standpoint the movement isn't much different. But the history, location, longevity etc all have a meaningful impact. Ultimately the outdoor climb almost always endures as a permanent feature others can visit and try. Therefore a majority will always regard outdoors as intrinsically better.

If the route Jerry won Leeds on was still up, I suspect it would only devalue his win as onsight standards and expectations of quality rise. Whereas Hubble keeps getting upgraded, both in difficulty and significance.

[spidermonkey09]

…it's an objective view of the sport as a whole, present, past and future.

I’d be fascinated to know how you’ve made this view objective and sidestepped any personal or generational biases that may lead it it becoming subjective!

This. Of all the things it is, its clearly not objective!

[mrjonathanr]

Yes it is. JB is objecting to comps. Can’t get more objective than that.

[Johnny Brown]

It's more objective than you lot are being. Hands up who was more excited for that guy who's name no one remembers bizarrely winning gold, or for Bosi doing Brandenberg gate? I mean I can copy and paste your derisory/ psyched comments on each thread if you insist. And that's a grotty old project at the tor vs the actual fucking olympics. NO ONE CARES.

[Stu Littlefair]

Well I didn’t get out of bed early to watch Will do brandenburg gate.

[Stu Littlefair]

And I can’t even spell it.

Plus I only know about Lynn Hill cos she won Snowbird. Has she done anything outside?

[Teaboy]

People cared that’s why they got upset about the shit format and, to a lesser extent, the anomalous winner.

[mrjonathanr]

Actually, I am with JB but the reality is a lot of people aren’t and that’s fine by me. There’s only so much room in the Plantation car park anyway.

[Stu Littlefair]

More seriously Adam, if by "NO ONE" you mean no-one amongst me and my mates, I'm sure you're right.

OTOH, if you widen your umwelt to include the 8 year old down the Foundry who was desperately begging her mum to get her some 5:10s because "that's what Shauna wears" but who doesn't have a clue who Jerry is, your point gets somewhat weaker.

[mrjonathanr]

And I can’t even spell it.

Plus I only know about Lynn Hill cos she won Snowbird. Has she done anything outside?

She won Survival of the Fittest, that was outside.

[Wellsy]

I bet most people who climb these days never touch rock.

[spidermonkey09]

It's more objective than you lot are being. Hands up who was more excited for that guy who's name no one remembers bizarrely winning gold, or for Bosi doing Brandenberg gate? I mean I can copy and paste your derisory/ psyched comments on each thread if you insist. And that's a grotty old project at the tor vs the actual fucking olympics. NO ONE CARES.

I actually tend more towards your view, I'll always care more about outdoors than comps, but saying your/my view is objective is palpable nonsense. Of course it isn't, its completely subjective.

[Johnny Brown]

OTOH, if you widen your umwelt to include the 8 year old down the Foundry who was desperately begging her mum to get her some 5:10s because "that's what Shauna wears" but who doesn't have a clue who Jerry is, your point gets somewhat weaker. And who still goes to the foundry?

I did exactly the same. I bought my first pair of lazers after going to watch the world cup in Birmingham and nearly everyone was wearing kendos, but a few had lazers, and having tried on both I preferred the fit. An eight year old girl should not know who Jerry is, he gave up years ago, which is probably for the best as he'd have been cancelled by now.

More seriously Adam, if by "NO ONE" you mean no-one amongst me and my mates, I'm sure you're right.

No, as I said I have lots of close friends who competed and one who continues to be involved with comps at all levels. But when being 'objective' everyone seems to sit back, stroke their chin, pontificate about the growth of indoors and how it is about to change things, while suppressing their own feelings and ignoring what people actually react to.

How many indoor walls have big photos of rock climbing on the wall, and how many have photos of comps being won?

[danm]

Sorry JB, but you've echo chambered yerself. Pre covid participation figures from SE:

image001 by dan middleton, on Flickr

Climbing is now predominantly an indoor sport, unless there is a large, hidden cohort who do not climb indoors but only climb outside less than twice a month.

[Johnny Brown]

At what point did participation equal importance Dan? I see a lot of exercise bikes in gyms, does that mean cycling is now predominantly an indoor sport and the tour de zwift will soon be all that matters? And the only echo chamber is my skull, no one agrees with me. Except when they say they do really, but also presume there is a silent majority who don't.

What people value is not necessarily demonstrated by what they do, but what they aspire to do and are inspired by. Most of us live unremarkable lives dogged by circumstance and thwarted by contingencies. But we've all seen Free Solo.

[Yossarian]

I live / climb in the far SE, which is about as far away from having any noticeable chunks of rock that people might occasionally drive past and think, "I quite fancy climbing that". Apart from Norwich...

I love the CrossFit guys who are flocking to the walls with their long socks and their experimental haircuts and tattoos of African predatory mammals. And I had assumed that they have absolutely no interest in any historical aspects of climbing, or an interest in climbing outside. But I have started chatting to them a bit, and they do at least seem to be aware of it. They've watched Free Solo, some of them have seen things on RB tv. They've seen pictures when they've been researching what shoes to buy. I think manufactures are still using outdoor imagery to sell stuff to people who are going to use it indoors. Walls have pictures of people climbing outside...

[jwi]

What people value is not necessarily demonstrated by what they do, but what they aspire to do and are inspired by. Most of us live unremarkable lives dogged by circumstance and thwarted by contingencies. But we've all seen Free Solo.

This.

I have seen Free Solo.

[Wellsy]

Free Solo I.e the 4th best climbing film of all time

(3rd best is Rampage, 2nd best is Fear and Loathing, best is the footage of Nalle doing BoD)

[danm]

Yes, research shows a fair amount of latent demand or interest in outdoor climbing from those who only climb indoors. That doesn't translate to them getting out there though, most likely due to accessibility issues - if you live in London the barrier to getting to an outdoor venue is pretty large. Personally I'm in favour of building high quality outdoor boulder parks in cities, like Shoreditch but bigger, to bring outdoor bouldering to the people.

Importance is purely subjective, participation is hard data and is a useful measure, but sure, aspiration is an important aspect and is one reason why part of the GB Climbing & BMC work isn't just about getting medals, but reduced barriers for those who want to try other aspects of the sport, whether that's climbing outside, becoming a coach, or anything else. Which you'd know if you'd read the various strategic plans which are publicly available.

West Coast Gimps - I'll fight you if you don't think it's the best film...

[wasbeen]

Importance is purely subjective, participation is hard data and is a useful measure, but sure, aspiration is an important aspect and is one reason why part of the GB Climbing & BMC work isn't just about getting medals, but reduced barriers for those who want to try other aspects of the sport, whether that's climbing outside, becoming a coach, or anything else. Which you'd know if you'd read the various strategic plans which are publicly available.

Fully agree with this and helping with that transition is something that BMC have done well.

My daughter did a few of the BMC/DMM youth meets that Caff organised. They were brilliant; £40 to drop your teenager off at a club hut for a weekend of climbing with pros and surviving for themselves.

Unfortunately I can't see them on the BMC website for this year. Hopefully it is just a temporary COVID absence.

Edit: just seen on his Instagram that he ran one last weekend

[Bradders]

Free Solo I.e the 4th best climbing film of all time

(3rd best is Rampage, 2nd best is Fear and Loathing, best is the footage of Nalle doing BoD)

Err, The Real Thing....

[crimpinainteasy]

I think that climbing in the Olympics changes this a lot. You might not remember who wins some competitions here and there but the Olympics medalists for sure.

Remind me - who won the Men’s Olympic gold?

Alberto Gines Lopez.

I don't think this argument is going to go anywhere, there are loads of Font 8B+ and above/french 9a and above crushers none of us have ever heard of. Unless you're putting up Font 8C+ and harder or french 9b and harder FA's you're unlikely to be internationally known for your outdoor ascents.

[Wellsy]

Free Solo I.e the 4th best climbing film of all time

(3rd best is Rampage, 2nd best is Fear and Loathing, best is the footage of Nalle doing BoD)

Err, The Real Thing....

Yeah that's better than Free Solo, for sure