[shark]

I’m psyched that Will is taking a year out to focus on outdoor climbing as I’m far more excited by what he does on rock. On the other hand I also have a long-standing interest in the BMC and how it meets its obligations and expectations. Presumably the primary goal of GB Climbing is to have the national team perform well on the world stage and if their procedures, management or whatever have caused or contributed to the loss of the star player then it is not meeting its obligations/expectations. Trouble is there is a conspiracy of silence as it is not in athletes best interest to be publicly critical.

[wasbeen]

I’m psyched that Will is taking a year out to focus on outdoor climbing as I’m far more excited by what he does on rock. On the other hand I also have a long-standing interest in the BMC and how it meets its obligations and expectations. Presumably the primary goal of GB Climbing is to have the national team perform well on the world stage and if their procedures, management or whatever have caused or contributed to the loss of the star player then it is not meeting its obligations/expectations. Trouble is there is a conspiracy of silence as it is not in athletes best interest to be publicly critical.

Just to say. My posts above are based on experience/observations of the GB setup in general and not specifically Will.

In summary the BMC are trying to do too much, for too many, with not enough resources.

[Adam Lincoln]

I’m psyched that Will is taking a year out to focus on outdoor climbing as I’m far more excited by what he does on rock. On the other hand I also have a long-standing interest in the BMC and how it meets its obligations and expectations. Presumably the primary goal of GB Climbing is to have the national team perform well on the world stage and if their procedures, management or whatever have caused or contributed to the loss of the star player then it is not meeting its obligations/expectations. Trouble is there is a conspiracy of silence as it is not in athletes best interest to be publicly critical.

Just to say. My posts above are based on experience/observations of the GB setup in general and not specifically Will.

In summary the BMC are trying to do too much, for too many, with not enough resources.

Have they managed to redirect some money as they have just taken on a few coaches. I can think of 5 names off the top of my head. Surely a step in the right direction?

[wasbeen]

I believe that vast majority of the coaches are employed on an ad-hoc basis for individual competitions and training weekends. Pay rates are low and in some cases it is done on a volunteer basis. This works for both parties as coaching the GB team gives s certain amount of prestige. However, it is not a conjoined coaching strategy tailored for the individual which you would get from e.g. Lattice.

Don't get me wrong, all the people involved are top notch and want to do the best for the team. It is just that IMO they are hamstrung by the beauracartic overhead of the BMC in particular with regards to selection (policies, events, appeals etc.) and that they have too many climbers on the books.

All the members of the development squad and most of the senior squad will be pretty much self funded (other than maybe a bit of kit from sponsors). I worked out that most climbers (or their parents) in the development squad will be paying a minimum of £7k, even for the youngest age groups, once you take into account personal coaching, travel to training weekends, competitions, and selection events, that are required to be eligible for re-selection. Costs go up as you move up through the age groups and competitions more far afield.

Like tennis, it has become a sport that has become very expensive to do well at, even though the basic equipment is quite cheap.

[Adam Lincoln]

Indeed the rates of pay i saw were less than that of a route setter. Like you say a lot of it will come down to the love if it.

[wasbeen]

Indeed the rates of pay i saw were less than that of a route setter. Like you say a lot of it will come down to the love if it.

Interestingly, my daughter who was quite handy at climbing, gave it up a couple of years ago to take up rowing. What surprised me is that everything at rowing at a club level seems to be done on a volunteer basis including all the coaching and competitions. It has saved us an absolute fortune!

I guess because competition climbing has grown out through the walls, it has become much more commercial.

[SA Chris]

What surprised me is that everything at rowing at a club level seems to be done on a volunteer basis including all the coaching and competitions. It has saved us an absolute fortune!

This holds true for just about all youth sports and activity clubs my kids are involved in. Be careful you don't get roped in, you might find yourself in charge if you show any interest...

[Johnny Brown]

I climb with several former british junior champions. They all dropped out of competing as soon as they turned twenty, got cars, moved somewhere good for getting outdoors, and escaped the sphere of influence of parents/ team managers etc. Comp climbing will always have a retention problem because it is a sub-sport of something much bigger, older and more interesting. Nobody in the wider sport sees it as the real deal, and as climbers mature they will always feel the need to prove themselves outside. The more competitive inside becomes, the less easy it is to fit in cutting edge performance outside. So the only way you'll keep people competing is to throw money at them (which tbf seems to be what they've been doing), but people will always be looking to get out. But realistically the team approach also needs to allow or preferably incorporate serious outside time and achievement as a part of the yearly training cycle.

[Adam Lincoln]

I was chatting to a member of the Austrian team last month (Chris says hi) and he was saying he is paid a salary for being on the team (I guess funded by the military). This meant him doing a month's military service a year, and the rest of the year off to climb. Sounds like this isn't the only country to do it as well.

I know this wouldn't be an option in the UK but its an interesting concept. The Austrians aren't rubbish at comps. Assume Jakob is on a similar deal also, from what was said. He seems to be able to do indoors and outdoors well.

[Dexter]

I climb with several former british junior champions. They all dropped out of competing as soon as they turned twenty, got cars, moved somewhere good for getting outdoors, and escaped the sphere of influence of parents/ team managers etc. Comp climbing will always have a retention problem because it is a sub-sport of something much bigger, older and more interesting. Nobody in the wider sport sees it as the real deal, and as climbers mature they will always feel the need to prove themselves outside. The more competitive inside becomes, the less easy it is to fit in cutting edge performance outside. So the only way you'll keep people competing is to throw money at them (which tbf seems to be what they've been doing), but people will always be looking to get out. But realistically the team approach also needs to allow or preferably incorporate serious outside time and achievement as a part of the yearly training cycle.

I also think that the general bureaucracy/politics/bullshit doesn't help matters. Most of the top level climbers I know just want to climb hard, train hard and (in some cases) compete and do well. They don't want any of the extra crap.

[SA Chris]

Do you think this holds true in other countries? A lot of international competitors seem to be happy to not do much outdoors.

[teestub]

Comp climbing will always have a retention problem because it is a sub-sport of something much bigger, older and more interesting. Nobody in the wider sport sees it as the real deal, and as climbers mature they will always feel the need to prove themselves outside.

I’m sure this was the case up to maybe a decade or so ago, but I feel like the divergence between indoor and outdoor, and the acceptance of competition climbing as a ‘real deal’ has increased massively in the past decade.

People like Schubert are basically training for comps all year then taking a couple of weeks climbing holidays and performing at the highest level outdoors. Of course one could ask what he had ever achieved on Gogarth North Stack.

[wasbeen]

I think you are right that indoor climbing has grown in to its own thing now and many kids won't ever climb outdoors at all.

It is amazing to see how much the industry has grown over the last 10 years with so many walls been built.

What I would say is that it feels we have entered into Chinese takeaway syndrome. Where the menu is almost the same at all restaurants even though they are independent. In part because of what is stocked at the wholesalers.

I think in climbing, this is happening as they use the same pool of wall builders, holds, and setters.

It will be interesting over the next few years whether indoor climbing walls develop more individual personality beyond the ethically sourced coffee and cakes.

[Johnny Brown]

the acceptance of competition climbing as a ‘real deal’ has increased massively in the past decade

Only up to a point. Who remembers old comp results? Only the occasional exceptional one. If you want your talent to leave a legacy it is first ascents on rock all the way. Of course if people become uncompetitive at comp climbing by, say, 25, that could leave time for both. But people will still be mindful of not leaving their exit too late.

[wasbeen]

Do you think this holds true in other countries? A lot of international competitors seem to be happy to not do much outdoors.

Austria and France have National walls where all the climbers train. In Japan, they also train together as a team. In the UK must GB climbers, climb individually and come together for events.

The best article I have seen on the state of play of competition climbing, is this UKC article. By bouldering coach at the time, Nicholas Januel. Pretty much everything he said is spot on and was ahead of its time. It is interesting to see how the French team has developed since:

https://www.ukclimbing.com/news/2017/08/nicolas_januel_french_national_bouldering_team_coach-71233#:~:text=UKC%20News%20%2D%20INTERVIEW%3A%20Nicolas%20Januel%2C%20French%20National%20Bouldering%20team%20coach

[teestub]

Only up to a point. Who remembers old comp results? Only the occasional exceptional one. If you want your talent to leave a legacy it is first ascents on rock all the way.

This just speaks to your personal interests though right? You only have to look at other competitive sports, where there are stattos that can give you Merckx’s whole palmares, and those who only know the significant wins.

Same can be applied to FAs, just because you have your name against a bit of rock somewhere, it’s not much of a legacy unless it’s a significant route.

[cheque]

I climb with several former british junior champions. They all dropped out of competing as soon as they turned twenty, got cars, moved somewhere good for getting outdoors, and escaped the sphere of influence of parents/ team managers etc…. people will always be looking to get out.

Same goes for all sports people compete in as kids. Once you get to your late teens/ early 20s the last thing you want to be doing is the parent-led grind you’ve done for the previous ten years or so, particularly if the only pleasure you got from it was winning. I’m sure this applies to rock climbing too- I can’t be the only person whose seen a kid who’s had enough for the day being coaxed back onto the rope for another redpoint burn. It’s not a recipe for a lifelong love of anything.

[Dexter]

Only up to a point. Who remembers old comp results? Only the occasional exceptional one. If you want your talent to leave a legacy it is first ascents on rock all the way.

This just speaks to your personal interests though right? You only have to look at other competitive sports, where there are stattos that can give you Merckx’s whole palmares, and those who only know the significant wins.

Same can be applied to FAs, just because you have your name against a bit of rock somewhere, it’s not much of a legacy unless it’s a significant route.

I think that climbing in the Olympics changes this a lot. You might not remember who wins some competitions here and there but the Olympics medalists for sure.

[Johnny Brown]

This just speaks to your personal interests though right?

Not really my personal interest no, it's an objective view of the sport as a whole, present, past and future. I'm under no illusions how popular walls are, but I don't see any danger of interest in indoor results surpassing outdoors.

Comparison to cycling is pretty specious. Unless you think road races will end up as a footnote to Zwift?

Same goes for all sports people compete in as kids. Once you get to your late teens/ early 20s the last thing you want to be doing is the parent-led grind you’ve done for the previous ten years or so, particularly if the only pleasure you got from it was winning.

Not really comparable to other sports as in most sports competition is the whole thing. Comp climbers don't drop out of climbing, quite the opposite, they're usually psyched out of their minds. Just not for comps.

As an aside, my favourite whatsapp meme at the mo is dad mates sending pics of themselves at some shit wall in some godforesaken town, spending perfect grit days in isolation with their kid plus some other dad they spent the last twenty years avoiding.

[edshakey]

Only up to a point. Who remembers old comp results? Only the occasional exceptional one. If you want your talent to leave a legacy it is first ascents on rock all the way.

If Janja keeps doing what she's doing, and stays away from rock as much as she has done in the past, you don't think she'd be remembered as one of the best? Nobody has won comps like she has - if she kept doing that and didn't put up any new hard rock routes, I don't think we'd forget about her. While we might not remember every result, it's still a hell of a legacy.

[shark]

I think that climbing in the Olympics changes this a lot. You might not remember who wins some competitions here and there but the Olympics medalists for sure.

Remind me - who won the Men’s Olympic gold?

[Johnny Brown]

If Janja keeps doing what she's doing, and stays away from rock as much as she has done in the past, you don't think she'd be remembered as one of the best? Nobody has won comps like she has - if she kept doing that and didn't put up any new hard rock routes, I don't think we'd forget about her. While we might not remember every result, it's still a hell of a legacy.

Yeah she'd be up there with Francois Legrand. But I'll be very surprised if in ten years she hasn't built an even more impressive CV on rock.

[Teaboy]

I'm under no illusions how popular walls are, but I don't see any danger of interest in indoor results surpassing outdoors.

It better had given the BMC is pumping as much money into GB Climbing as it does access and conservation.
In fact, I’d say it already has, I can name as many foreign comp climbers as outdoor climbers. As significant first ascents become rarer comps will be the only way to stand out. Onsights of outdoor routes could as well but even now I’m not sure who’s onsighted what but I have a pretty reasonable idea of hardest redpoints.

[remus]

Yeah she'd be up there with Francois Legrand. But I'll be very surprised if in ten years she hasn't built an even more impressive CV on rock.

What counts as impressive is very subjective. I dont think it makes a lot of sense to pretend outdoors is intrinsically better than indoors any more than climbing something in the himalaya is intrinsically better than bouldering in font.

[SA Chris]

I think that climbing in the Olympics changes this a lot. You might not remember who wins some competitions here and there but the Olympics medalists for sure.

Remind me - who won the Men’s Olympic gold?

Spain